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Author Topic: Greeks protest (once more) and burn German/Nazi flags  (Read 5215 times)
The Mikado
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 12:01:24 am »
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I totally agree with burning the current German flag, it's a crime against aesthetics.  Bring back the Black-White-Red Imperial flag
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yikes.

This is one of the biggest own goals I've ever seen on this Forum.
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 12:13:23 am »
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I still can't believe that the coalition would so passively accept stark minimum wage cuts that would do nothing to reduce the deficit and only satisfy the disgusting desire of the troika to implement neo-liberal reforms everywhere without rhyme or reason.

This is political suicide.
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 12:18:17 am »
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I love the idea of some Greek guy desperately stitching together a Nazi flag specifically for the purpose of burning it.

Given Germany's laws against displaying Nazi memorabilia, can they even show photos of this event?  The swastika-ban always puzzled me.

I totally agree with burning the current German flag, it's a crime against aesthetics.  Bring back the Black-White-Red Imperial flag.

I would imagine they can, given that ANTIFA logos showing swastikas being struck out or thrown in dumpsters were declared legal not that long ago. Germany isn't as completely indifferent to context as some people think here. As for your second point, I agree. It's very unfortunate that neo-Nazis and Anarchists (or both) have such a monopoly on aesthetically pleasing symbols.
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That has got to be one of the most retarded proposals I have read on this forum.

Don't worry, I'm sure more will crop up shortly.
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 12:25:21 am »
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Germany, of all countries, should understand that punishing people with economic disaster doesn't work out well for anyone.
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Why do so many people here cheer on war crimes?
Israel and the United States "killing dozens of civilians with explosives", as you phrase it, has, throughout history, almost always been a good thing.
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 01:37:18 am »
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Does the EU have the situation that the US does where the susidizees whine about how they're subsidizing the subsidizers, and talk about how self-reliant they are?
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2012, 01:41:31 am »
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Does the EU have the situation that the US does where the susidizees whine about how they're subsidizing the subsidizers, and talk about how self-reliant they are?

The E.U. has the situation where people who need help and are being denied it actually protest until they get something.

On a side note, it wouldn't be at all a bad idea for the Federal Government to reduce welfare spending and leave more of it to the states.  man, think what our states could do without having to subsidize the fat/uneducated/corn-growing states.
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Why do so many people here cheer on war crimes?
Israel and the United States "killing dozens of civilians with explosives", as you phrase it, has, throughout history, almost always been a good thing.
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2012, 01:56:32 am »
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Why is Tender playing the part of the neoliberal a-hole here ? Huh

Because you can be left-wing and care about fiscal responsibility, as he's always appeared to be to me.

It's the German (or Austrian) blood, perhaps... Wink

I'm hardly neo-liberal, I just want Greece to get more productive and arrive in the 21st century world of economic competition, which is very important these days. If you are a part of a highly productive Union, you should at least try and show the others that you still want to be productive in the future and not give up and complain. But I also recognize that the EU alltogether made a mistake in accepting countries like Greece or Portugal to be members so soon. A country should need at least 90% of the productivity/debt/deficit of the whole EU to join. If this would have been the case, a lot of these problems wouldn't take place right now. Greece would just go bankrupt like many other failed countries before and start from zero.

As for Franzl: Yeah, it's probably got to do with mentality. Austrians/Germans have grandparents who tell their grandchildren of how difficult it was after WW2, when they built our 2 countries back up out of the ashes and made them one of the most well managed and productive countries in the World. And it's passed along the generations. If you are told that you must work hard and don't whine around you also expect something like this from the people of Greece. That could also be a reason why there are almost no strikes here.
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2012, 05:18:22 am »
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I love the idea of some Greek guy desperately stitching together a Nazi flag specifically for the purpose of burning it.

Given Germany's laws against displaying Nazi memorabilia, can they even show photos of this event?  The swastika-ban always puzzled me.

I totally agree with burning the current German flag, it's a crime against aesthetics.  Bring back the Black-White-Red Imperial flag.

I would imagine they can, given that ANTIFA logos showing swastikas being struck out or thrown in dumpsters were declared legal not that long ago. Germany isn't as completely indifferent to context as some people think here. As for your second point, I agree. It's very unfortunate that neo-Nazis and Anarchists (or both) have such a monopoly on aesthetically pleasing symbols.

That's also the reason why the swastika is featured prominently on the homepage of the German Green Party.
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Antonio V
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2012, 09:56:50 am »
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I'm hardly neo-liberal, I just want Greece to get more productive and arrive in the 21st century world of economic competition, which is very important these days. If you are a part of a highly productive Union, you should at least try and show the others that you still want to be productive in the future and not give up and complain. But I also recognize that the EU alltogether made a mistake in accepting countries like Greece or Portugal to be members so soon. A country should need at least 90% of the productivity/debt/deficit of the whole EU to join. If this would have been the case, a lot of these problems wouldn't take place right now. Greece would just go bankrupt like many other failed countries before and start from zero.

As for Franzl: Yeah, it's probably got to do with mentality. Austrians/Germans have grandparents who tell their grandchildren of how difficult it was after WW2, when they built our 2 countries back up out of the ashes and made them one of the most well managed and productive countries in the World. And it's passed along the generations. If you are told that you must work hard and don't whine around you also expect something like this from the people of Greece. That could also be a reason why there are almost no strikes here.

I really don't get this logic. How do you expect Greece to develop, modernize and become productive through savage austerity measures no civilized country could ever accept ? Don't you see how cutting the Welfare State, cutting social protections basically leads to economic and social regression ? How can you consider yourself a social-democrat and advocate such policies ?!? All these measures are doing is pushing Greece into recession. Recession means less tax revenues, less tax revenues mean an even bigger deficit. So what do you do, another austerity plan ? Great ! When will this stop ? When there is no deficit, because there's no government anymore. And there will be no civilization anymore, as mass unemployment and poverty would have led to the breakup of social contract.

People, grow up. THINK, for God's sake. Deficit isn't good, especially in times of economic prosperity. It's better to have a surplus than to have a deficit, of course. But since Keynes, everybody with half 1/100th of a brain understands that a deficit might be necessary to avoid economic collaps in times of recession. It has been proven thousands of times that making deficit reduction a higher priority than restoring growth equals economic suicide. Someone who thinks Greek people deserve this because their past (right-wing) government let the deficit grow to excessive level could, IMO, reasonably be called an asshole. I hope it's not your case.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 10:11:57 am by Antonio V »Logged

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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2012, 11:05:01 am »
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The Greek government has its fair share of responsibility for the current situation with its unwillingness to push through the necessary reforms and reduce the size of our elephantine administration and state utility companies. Sadly, taxi drivers and workers at our state TV channels proved to be more powerful than the troika. And our national victimization complex and navel-gazing mentality make it easy to believe that there are sinister motives behind every Brussels/Berlin ultimatum.

But that doesn't mean that EU's prescription of austerity, austerity, and some more austerity, isn't an abject failure. Portugal and Ireland, which supposedly followed EU's instructions much more faithfully than us, and were complimented for that, are also in the midst of a severe recession and will soon need a second bailout, just like us.
Like Krugman said, when all EU states (even the prosperous ones) decide to apply austerity policies then unless we find some aliens to trade with, recession is inevitable.
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 11:20:09 am »
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The imperial flag is disgusting and Mikado should be ashamed. The red-black-gold flag is the flag of the (bourgeois at least) revolution and is great.
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At the very least, this turn of events seems to validate my prediction that Americans are ready and willing to fully embrace fascism.
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2012, 12:33:03 pm »
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Greek minimum wage is probably holding them. Holding an even worse fall.

And Tender, please. This rich works more, poor works less speech - added with a hardworking grandparents that passed me values - is so petty-bourgeois. My family history would fit on this, yet there were no wasteland here (and the preferred excuse thus being the immigrant ethos) but I know a lot of families with the same, or even higher, income levels that doesn't fit at all. And a lot of poor people that works a lot.
Actually, I've known few poors that don't stand up at 5AM, keep standing inside the bus for at least 1 hour, works all day through, hold their heads down when their employers or chiefs humiliate them, then more bus, a lame meal and sleep. Yet, I can tell you, a rich, well educated, but lazy and slightly obnoxious kid will usually do a more effective job.
It's a matter of culture, yes, but not based on effort. It's based on the time and the approach that community had on the industrial society's issues. This creates behaviors and postures that leads to a better relation with the economical-technological environment they are immerse.
Look at how easily East Asia absorbed the industrial society culture. Their merchant/proto-industrial leanings were strong enough, over agricultural organizations, to make an easy and fast transition. On China, I dare state this was a result of Mao's crazy 'go to the country' policies. It wasn't madness; just plain pragmatism.
Now, here in Latin America (and I guess the Southern Asian case would be very similar) our almost medieval agricultural societies, thrown suddenly at the new social-economical organisation, evolved to a situation in what urban populations got easily onto modern world, but rural populations kept living on ancient mentality. When the stupid economical policies of the 70's provoked a heavy rural flight, and sudden disappeared with the opportunities, we got stuck with a population whose culture didn't fit that environment.
This is only being solved now, after the second or third generation of inland immigrants is getting on productive age. And It's most because Lula's policies provided them better opportunities than being janitors.

So, the problem with southern Europe is way more complicated. Because It mixes this civilizational gaps (yet in a extremely minor level) with geopolitics and economical international relations. Is it fair to blame Greek, Portuguese, Irish and Spanish governments? Yes, it is. They accepted the EU arrangements blindly, didn't made any effort to use this to improve their societies, lacked any kind of national project; just followed their richer neighbours bovinely.
Is it fair to western Europe to complain about their southern neighbours? No, it isn't. The whole plan was elaborated by the EEU, those countries did nothing that wasn't approved and stimulated by the Paris-London-Berlin axis.
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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2012, 10:30:33 am »
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I'm hardly neo-liberal, I just want Greece to get more productive and arrive in the 21st century world of economic competition, which is very important these days. If you are a part of a highly productive Union, you should at least try and show the others that you still want to be productive in the future and not give up and complain. But I also recognize that the EU alltogether made a mistake in accepting countries like Greece or Portugal to be members so soon. A country should need at least 90% of the productivity/debt/deficit of the whole EU to join. If this would have been the case, a lot of these problems wouldn't take place right now. Greece would just go bankrupt like many other failed countries before and start from zero.

As for Franzl: Yeah, it's probably got to do with mentality. Austrians/Germans have grandparents who tell their grandchildren of how difficult it was after WW2, when they built our 2 countries back up out of the ashes and made them one of the most well managed and productive countries in the World. And it's passed along the generations. If you are told that you must work hard and don't whine around you also expect something like this from the people of Greece. That could also be a reason why there are almost no strikes here.

I really don't get this logic. How do you expect Greece to develop, modernize and become productive through savage austerity measures no civilized country could ever accept ? Don't you see how cutting the Welfare State, cutting social protections basically leads to economic and social regression ? How can you consider yourself a social-democrat and advocate such policies ?!? All these measures are doing is pushing Greece into recession. Recession means less tax revenues, less tax revenues mean an even bigger deficit. So what do you do, another austerity plan ? Great ! When will this stop ? When there is no deficit, because there's no government anymore. And there will be no civilization anymore, as mass unemployment and poverty would have led to the breakup of social contract.

People, grow up. THINK, for God's sake. Deficit isn't good, especially in times of economic prosperity. It's better to have a surplus than to have a deficit, of course. But since Keynes, everybody with half 1/100th of a brain understands that a deficit might be necessary to avoid economic collaps in times of recession. It has been proven thousands of times that making deficit reduction a higher priority than restoring growth equals economic suicide. Someone who thinks Greek people deserve this because their past (right-wing) government let the deficit grow to excessive level could, IMO, reasonably be called an asshole. I hope it's not your case.

I think it all depends how these austerity measures are put together. Of course I would favor austerity measures that are not impacting the middle class by a great deal. As I have posted in the Austrian election topic, the government here unveils a spending cuts/tax increase package that the Standard newspaper here calls "moderate, but not bold". This package is worth about 30 billion for the next 5 years and involves almost exclusively areas that won't impact the solid economy and it's future growth (read more in the Austrian election thread about this). So, if Austrian politicians can find areas that won't impact the economy, the Greeks I suppose can do so as well and weed out areas that are bloated (like their mega-million-civil servants sector) or deeply flawed (pensions, billions of pension payments each year to dead people ?) or deeply flawed (tax system, tax evading is a hobby in Greece, most people have not heard about the word "bill" when a customer buys something, fakelaki or what it is called is the easier solution) or flawed (a megalomaniac military industrial complex that has spending that is 5 times higher than Austrian military spending). Then there's also the problem with the pledged privatisations by the Greek government worth of about 50 billion , pledged about 2 years ago, and the government hasn't privatized almost anything of this sum in these 2 years to pay down debt. And of course, the minimum wage decrease might be not the best way, but I have read somewhere that it might be better to decrease it now, so that the employers can hire more and more people are paying taxes again.
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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2012, 12:24:34 pm »
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Oh really ? Austria's austerity plan doesn't hurt middle classes as much as Greece's ? Maybe it has to do with the fact Austria's debt is less than half of Greece's... or that the Austrian welfare is more protective to begin with. Of course there are solutions to end the structural deficits in southern economies, but these are long-term solutions : fighting against tax evasions, ending undue loopholes and exemptions or cutting spending in improductive government sectors. But these are long-term solutions, it's not something you can fix from one budget law to the next one. And instead, what Europe and the Great and Virtuous Countries are pushing for, are short-term plans to cut the deficit. Except that nothing work mechanically when we talks about economics. You won't diminish the deficit by 1 bilion by defunding for 1 bilion of programs which sustained the economy. If this it were the case, Greece would be in surplus right now. Instead, the only thing you people have achieved is sending people into utter misery while Greek finances are worse off than they were 2 years ago. Great job.
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Quote from: IRC
22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2012, 08:45:28 pm »
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So...the austerity thing passed.

Sht just got real.
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« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2012, 08:56:34 pm »
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Germany's Carthaginian terms for Greece

Not going to post a snippet because the whole thing really is worth a read.
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« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2012, 12:19:33 am »
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What should be negotiated, of course, is the plan for getting Greece (and, likely, some other countries) out of the euro with minimal pain and suffering. Of course, it is impossible to do this in the open: any hint of such negotiations would destroy whatever is left of the Greek financial system in a second. The problem, though, is, that, in fact, Greece has effectively committed to not negotiating it even in secret, by installing a "technocratic" PM. Even if we forget that Papademos was the one who engineered Greek entry into the eurozone (and is unlikely to give up his major achievement without a fight), he cannot, really, make such a fundamentally political decision.
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« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2012, 03:05:53 pm »
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Here's the plan.

3-4 Weeks Ahead: Decision is made at the highest political and financial levels. Greek government begins to secretly stockpile food and fuel, ala Thatcher stockpiling coal in the 1980's.
2-3 Weeks Ahead: The military is apprised, as are the heads of the major political parties. A succession plan is drawn up for the resignation of Lucas Papdemos or current PM and his replacement with a willing leader.
1-2 Weeks Ahead: Some top police officials are apprised. Plans are drawn up to maintain enough order on the main thoroughfares to ensure that the trucks can keep the supermarkets stocked.
Friday Morning: Design of new drachma sent to printing presses.
Friday Afternoon 4 PM: Private bankers are called to a meeting in which they are told to prepare imposition of capital controls.
Friday Afternoon 5:30 PM Capital controls announced. At the same time, it is announced Greece is quitting the EU. Transfer of funds outside the country is forbidden. Banks are closed and online transfers are frozen. From this point forward, no paper euros are to be disbursed in Greece.
Saturday night: Bank of Greece formally exits the Eurosystem of Central Banks. It is announced Greece is quitting the EZ. Papademos resigns and is replaced by successor.
Sunday night: Drachma declared legal tender. All electronic euros are electronically converted to drachmas.
Monday morning: Paper new drachmas begin to be disbursed in selected cities.
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« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2012, 03:24:49 pm »
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All that's well and good, but wouldn't the value of the new Drachma go down to zero instantaneously?  It wouldn't really matter if it were allowed to float or not.
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« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2012, 05:03:51 pm »
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No way Greece goes out of the Euro Zone.

Polls keep showing a large majority of Greeks don't want it, the govt doesn't want it, and if I believe reporters from there, those big demonstrations and the violent things that go with, which are, as always, mainly the result of some extremist violent groups, would only be 'the tree that hides the forest' as we way in French, most Greeks would be more resigned even if quite bitter about what's happening to them, than ready for a revolution.

And, on the other hand, we have the Euro Zone, which gonna do everything to avoid it too, losing a member of the Euro Zone, and moreover the smallest one, not succeeding to save it, would be a total blow up psychologically, and would lead to a big lack of credibility in the financial world.

If nobody effectively wants it, then not going to happen.

I can't wait next elections though, so that we know what Greeks actually want. Which is what matters in the end. Just heard some polls gave about 40% to all the leftist parties that called for the end of Euro in Greece, then who knows, but I'd be surprised it happens. If so, it would be an acceleration toward the worse for this economical system, at the global scale.

Violences and destructions have no bearing in Democracy

Lucas Papademos, 12/02/2012

That's very right Mr Papademos, then if those took place, maybe it just means there is like a problem of democracy...

Ironical that the country that saw the 1st monetary system and the 1st democratic one, would be the 1st one to be touched by the fail of those both. Still ironical that the 2 other countries which gave the most important updates to those realms in History too, would be the most crippled too, US and UK.

Demos will have to find new ways to find some Kratos...
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02/09/2013: Abandon of Syria...
...and of, well, 'all of that'...

Money became totally unfair.
Money became totally senseless.
Let's make Money totally useless...

??/??/20??: EU UU!!

Maybe a little update:

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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2012, 05:08:08 pm »
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There's nothing democratic about the way Papademos was inserted into power.
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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2012, 05:42:32 pm »
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Why the hate on Papademos? He's only the head of Greece's for-show-only Mock Government. It's not as if he has any power...
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« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2012, 07:21:35 pm »
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Letting the bankers or the military know anything in advance would be a disaster. The parliament should be called into a closed session no earlier than at 8 PM on a Saturday (once the agreement between Papandreu and Samaras is reached). Hopefully, by early morning all the necessary legislation could be adopted. It's only then, once drachma is the sole legal tender, that anybody should be notified. In any case, bankers can only be informed simultaneously with the announcement of a bank holiday. It is, probably, impossible to print the drachma in secret: don't do it in advance. For a few days, until a provisional currency may be circulated, I'd suggest allowing only domestic electronic transactions (in drachma). To help the poorest, the staples should be available from the government.

And, of course, quitting EU is out of the question. Temporary border controls may be imposed, but only briefly. It is indispensible that Greece stays in the EU and is helped out  by the other members. That's why, Merkel would have to agree to this first.
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« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2012, 07:22:20 pm »
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Why the hate on Papademos? He's only the head of Greece's for-show-only Mock Government. It's not as if he has any power...

No hate. Though, of course, he does deserve some: he was actually the one, who engineered Greek entry into the eurozone. It's his mess, to a large extent.
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« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2012, 07:24:45 pm »
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There's nothing democratic about the way Papademos was inserted into power.

I thought, he was approved by the Parliament.
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