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Author Topic: The Historicity of Jesus - The Spread of Christianity in the 1st Century  (Read 4943 times)
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jmfcst
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« Reply #100 on: February 21, 2012, 03:04:49 pm »
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Would you knock off the conspiracy nonsense that you keep bringing up on your own?  I neither need nor use a conspiracy to explain why Pauline Christianity became the dominant form of Christianity.  That rise was a natural outcome of the devastation of the Judaic Christian communities as a byproduct of the Jewish Revolts.

It’s still a conspiracy: post-Revolt, you’re saying the remnants of the supposed true Christianity were pushed aside.  But, how exactly would the Jewish Revolts and the destruction of Jerusalem have helped Paul’s supposedly false Christianity, when it is historically clear as day that Christianity had spread throughout the entire Mediterranean by 70AD?  Was Paul the only Apostle who traveled outside of Jerusalem?

---

Final question:

If Jesus stated in John 4:21 that the Church Age would not include the requirement of any believer to worship in Jerusalem (which wipe outs many of the Law’s “perpetual” requirements from the Church Age)…why do you claim Jewish Christians are still required to obey the rest of the Law of Moses during the Church Age?

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #101 on: February 21, 2012, 04:55:01 pm »
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Was Paul the only Apostle who traveled outside of Jerusalem?

Leaving aside that Paul's status as an apostle depends on how you define the term, no.  However Paul was definitely the most prominent of the Gentilizers, and the Jewish Revolts definitely tilted the tables in favor of the Gentilizers over the Judaizers and the Moderates, both because the latter two suffered disproportionate losses, but also it made being a Jew of any belief hazardous.

Final question:

If Jesus stated in John 4:21 that the Church Age would not include the requirement of any believer to worship in Jerusalem (which wipe outs many of the Law’s “perpetual” requirements from the Church Age)…why do you claim Jewish Christians are still required to obey the rest of the Law of Moses during the Church Age?

I've already covered this, but I'lllanswer it again for what I hope will be the final time.  I don't see the Messianic Covenant a a replacement for any of the covenants, but as an addition to the existing covenants.  Hence, for the observance of the Mosaic Law, the situation in the Church Age is analogous to that of the Babylonian Captivity. Jews are to follow the Law to the best of their ability to do so. To hold otherwise would imply that during the Babylonian Captivity the Jews then had no obligation to follow the Mosaic Law as best they could.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 05:00:56 pm by True Federalist »Logged

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« Reply #102 on: February 21, 2012, 05:34:22 pm »
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Was Paul the only Apostle who traveled outside of Jerusalem?

Leaving aside that Paul's status as an apostle depends on how you define the term, no.  However Paul was definitely the most prominent of the Gentilizers, and the Jewish Revolts definitely tilted the tables in favor of the Gentilizers over the Judaizers and the Moderates, both because the latter two suffered disproportionate losses, but also it made being a Jew of any belief hazardous.

So, again, you’re saying that Paul out hustled the sum total of all the original Christians (e.g. Peter, John, James, etc, etc, etc).

Did it ever occur to you that if your version of the Gospel is correct, then it invalidates much of Jesus’ prophecies concerning the spread of the Gospel?

---

I don't see the Messianic Covenant as a replacement for any covenant, but as an addition to the existing covenants.

A belief for which you have no scriptural evidence.  And the evidence that you do claim based on “perpetual” sections of the Law of Moses is INVALIDATED by Jesus’ own statement in John 4:21 (no need for God’s people to worship in Jerusalem) and the veil being torn (Holy of Holies made irrelevant), which nullify several of those very same “perpetual” sections.

The whole basis of your “perpetual” argument is shown to run contrary to the historical (~30AD) events and statements recorded in all 4 gospels, events that were 40 years PRIOR to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Nor did the veil wait until 70AD to be torn, rather it did so at the moment of Christ’s death:  Mat 26:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…Mark 15: 38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…Luke 23:45 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

---

For the observance of the Mosaic Law, the situation in the Church Age is analogous to that of the Babylonian Captivity. Jews are to follow the Law to the best of their ability to do so.

Again, you have no scriptural basis equating the Church Age to the Babylonian Captivity in regard to the requirements of the Jews…what’s more, the requirements of Jewish Christians changed at the death of Christ (~30AD), not at the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
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« Reply #103 on: February 21, 2012, 06:38:25 pm »
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The whole basis of your “perpetual” argument is shown to run contrary to the historical (~30AD) events and statements recorded in all 4 gospels, events that were 40 years PRIOR to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Nor did the veil wait until 70AD to be torn, rather it did so at the moment of Christ’s death:  Mat 26:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…Mark 15: 38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…Luke 23:45 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

Without God's presence in it, the Temple is just an ordinary building. That it took another four decades for the building to be destroyed is irrelevant.  The Temple was gone from the moment the curtain was rent.

As Strphen is reported tio have said before his stoning:
Quote from: Acts 7:48-50
48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

 49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
   and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
            says the Lord.
   Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?’


the requirements of Jewish Christians changed at the death of Christ (~30AD), not at the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

You are placing an unwarranted emphasis on the physical building.  And certainly the early church did not say at first that the Law of Moses would be changed by Jesus  If it did, then why was it needful to produce false witnesses that Stephen had said that Jesus had said he would change the Law of Moses?  The non-Christian Jews could have produced true witnesses if that was the case and convicted him of blasphemy by the very gospel he spoke.

I find it ironic that you seem to think the lies the witnesses told about the first martyr were actually true.
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« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2012, 01:39:42 am »
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I went to graduate school for this and will get into such details later. Perhaps I'll begin to post my own topics on here. My expertise is the spread of early Christianity and its conflicts with paganism and Rome. As for the historical Jesus, the gospel writers' main focuses were rallying people in a post-war era. Mark however was wartime literature. Pay attention to all the conflicts Jesus gets into with Jewish leaders. It was simply the authors of the gospels plugging Jesus into their own times. For example, Barabbas's character likely comes from the author of Mark seeing his fellow Jews siding with murderers rather than the Son of God as a result of the war. Alright I'll start posting topics because now I'm rambling.
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« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2012, 10:56:10 am »
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1Cor 1:20 “Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age?”

…looks like we found the one Paul wrote about:

I went to graduate school for this and will get into such details later. Perhaps I'll begin to post my own topics on here. My expertise is the spread of early Christianity and its conflicts with paganism and Rome.

Then what does that make me…Mrs. Nesbitt?!  Sorry, I am just a little depressed, that's all. I..I..I can get through this.. Oh, I'm a sham! ...Years of at home scriptural training in splendid isolation with supplemental Dinner Doodles, wasted!

But the moniker ‘jmfcst’ looked good? Tell me the moniker looked good. The ‘consigliere’ title is a bit much, but…

---

As for the historical Jesus, the gospel writers' main focuses were rallying people in a post-war era. Mark however was wartime literature. Pay attention to all the conflicts Jesus gets into with Jewish leaders. It was simply the authors of the gospels plugging Jesus into their own times. For example, Barabbas's character likely comes from the author of Mark seeing his fellow Jews siding with murderers rather than the Son of God as a result of the war. Alright I'll start posting topics because now I'm rambling.

…but, wait…you earned a post-graduate degree in conjecture?! 


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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2012, 02:28:13 pm »
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This has probably already been covered in some form in such a long thread, but I've always assumed Christianity spread because of its apocalyptic urgency.   Many early Christians and those who were around Jesus during his lifetime were giving the impression that his arrival meant the world would end before the end of the first century.  We've all seen how the strangest cults have risen swiftly on the same promises in modern times.  Not even Mormonism, but weird Baptist faction "prophets" like Michael Traverser.  That's enough to make it spread quickly and for Romans to fear it creating unnecessary panic in the empire. 

It likely wasn't the only fast growing religious movement that they killed during their reign.  In fact, Christianity was on the decline by the 3rd century and likely would have been a dead religion by the 5th if not for Constantine in the 4th.
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« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2012, 02:47:51 pm »
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This has probably already been covered in some form in such a long thread, but I've always assumed Christianity spread because of its apocalyptic urgency.   Many early Christians and those who were around Jesus during his lifetime were giving the impression that his arrival meant the world would end before the end of the first century.  We've all seen how the strangest cults have risen swiftly on the same promises in modern times.  Not even Mormonism, but weird Baptist faction "prophets" like Michael Traverser.  That's enough to make it spread quickly and for Romans to fear it creating unnecessary panic in the empire.

You stated three things:

1)   Christianity spread because of its apocalyptic urgency

2)   Many early Christians and those who were around Jesus during his lifetime were giving the impression that his arrival meant the world would end before the end of the first century.

3)   That's enough to make it spread quickly and for Romans to fear it creating unnecessary panic in the empire.

So, allow me to retort:

Rebuttal of 1) the NT itself states that it spread rapidly, in part, due to persecution of Christians (the scattering of the early church meant believers were driven out of Jerusalem and into other towns and countries)

e.g. Phil 1:12 “Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. 13 As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. 14 Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.”

Rebuttal of 2) this misinterpretation is itself addressed in the NT:

e.g. John 21:20-22 20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”  22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

e.g. 1Thes 5:1 “Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”

e.g. 2Thes 2:1 “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.”

Rebuttal of Point 3)  what is the evidence that the Roman reaction to Christianity was due to this supposed panic among Christians?
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2012, 02:57:36 pm »
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Maybe I misunderstood your response, but Biblical retort to the attitude of 1st AD Christianity is kind of silly isn't it?  There was no NT formed yet and it likely all spread through word of mouth.  Jesus could have told Peter this but that doesn't mean the other Apostles, or lesser disciples, comprehended such.   

Even today, with the Bible, we see things like Premillenial Rapture spread like a wildfire for no just reason. Without written testimony, I just cannot envision it NOT being chaotic.
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« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2012, 03:12:44 pm »
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Maybe I misunderstood your response, but Biblical retort to the attitude of 1st AD Christianity is kind of silly isn't it?  There was no NT formed yet and it likely all spread through word of mouth. 

so, the Apostles never wrote letters of instructions to the churches?!  That's quite old because Clement of Rome in a letter written around 96AD refereces letters written by the Apostles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Clement

Quote
New Testament references include Clement’s admonition to “Take up the epistle of the blessed Paul the Apostle” (xlvii. 1) which was written to this Corinthian audience; a reference which seems to imply written documents available at both Rome and Corinth. Clement also alludes to the epistles of Paul to the Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Philippians; numerous phrases from the Epistle to the Hebrews, and possible material from Acts, James, and I Peter. In several instances, he asks his readers to “remember” the words of Jesus, although Clement does not attribute these sayings to a specific written account. These New Testament allusions are employed as authoritative sources which strengthen Clement’s arguments to the Corinthian church, but Clement never explicitly refers to them as “Scripture”.
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2012, 03:30:39 pm »
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I'm not saying there's not written rules to Christianity.  I'm saying that, in a mostly illiterate society, they weren't the end all of what was happening at the time.   I mean seriously, jmfcst, before the printing press, the Bible that reached the public said only whatever the Catholic hierarchy wanted it to say.  In 1 AD? All of those letters only had one copy--the original, were only viewed by the recipient, and were at that person's discretion to heed all of it.  

As I said, apocalyptic urgency is only an assumption of mine.  I think it's rather good assumption.  Yes, there were rules and letters, but the church leaders main responsibility first and foremost was to convert as many people as they could.  Maybe some did it the right way, but even today we have ridiculous apocalyptic Christian denominations who are incredibly successful and no doubt back then we did, too.    

Now, when Nicea convened and sorted it all out for their history books they picked nothing but the finest of documents to use.  Good for them, but like all historical accounts of ANYTHING, there's a detailed ground situation that gets glossed over.
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« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2012, 03:40:07 pm »
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I mean seriously, jmfcst, before the printing press, the Bible that reached the public said only whatever the Catholic hierarchy wanted it to say.

you do know we have very early and extensive copies of the NT letters from pieces of surviving manuscripts and from quoted references, right?

---

 In 1 AD? All of those letters only had one copy--the original, were only viewed by the recipient, and were at that person's discretion to heed all of it.  

As if there was something about the late 1st Century that stopped people from making copies of the letters?!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2012, 04:26:49 pm »
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@King,

are you saying that the following is unlikely in the 1st Century?:

early Christian churches had letters written to them by the Apostles, these letters were copied and shared with other churches both near and far...and that some of these letters were widely circulated enough that they were widely known by the end of the 1st Century.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2012, 05:19:28 pm »
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1Cor 1:20 “Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age?”

…looks like we found the one Paul wrote about:

I went to graduate school for this and will get into such details later. Perhaps I'll begin to post my own topics on here. My expertise is the spread of early Christianity and its conflicts with paganism and Rome.

Then what does that make me…Mrs. Nesbitt?!  Sorry, I am just a little depressed, that's all. I..I..I can get through this.. Oh, I'm a sham! ...Years of at home scriptural training in splendid isolation with supplemental Dinner Doodles, wasted!

But the moniker ‘jmfcst’ looked good? Tell me the moniker looked good. The ‘consigliere’ title is a bit much, but…

---

As for the historical Jesus, the gospel writers' main focuses were rallying people in a post-war era. Mark however was wartime literature. Pay attention to all the conflicts Jesus gets into with Jewish leaders. It was simply the authors of the gospels plugging Jesus into their own times. For example, Barabbas's character likely comes from the author of Mark seeing his fellow Jews siding with murderers rather than the Son of God as a result of the war. Alright I'll start posting topics because now I'm rambling.

…but, wait…you earned a post-graduate degree in conjecture?! 




Yes mommy and daddy were wrong.
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« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2012, 05:21:29 pm »
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I mean seriously, jmfcst, before the printing press, the Bible that reached the public said only whatever the Catholic hierarchy wanted it to say.

you do know we have very early and extensive copies of the NT letters from pieces of surviving manuscripts and from quoted references, right?

---

 In 1 AD? All of those letters only had one copy--the original, were only viewed by the recipient, and were at that person's discretion to heed all of it.  

As if there was something about the late 1st Century that stopped people from making copies of the letters?!

That doesn't mean they weren't written with an agenda to spread propaganda. Just for this I'm posting about Pontius Pilate soon.
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« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2012, 05:30:14 pm »
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Just for this I'm posting about Pontius Pilate soon.

So you say. Nice to meet you; hope you're intelligent...So what's on your mind kimosabe? Why am I listening to you?...Got to monitor my blood pressure, so whatever you do, don't upset me.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2012, 08:23:16 pm »
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1Cor 1:20 “Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age?”

…looks like we found the one Paul wrote about:

I went to graduate school for this and will get into such details later. Perhaps I'll begin to post my own topics on here. My expertise is the spread of early Christianity and its conflicts with paganism and Rome.

Then what does that make me…Mrs. Nesbitt?!  Sorry, I am just a little depressed, that's all. I..I..I can get through this.. Oh, I'm a sham! ...Years of at home scriptural training in splendid isolation with supplemental Dinner Doodles, wasted!

But the moniker ‘jmfcst’ looked good? Tell me the moniker looked good. The ‘consigliere’ title is a bit much, but…

---

As for the historical Jesus, the gospel writers' main focuses were rallying people in a post-war era. Mark however was wartime literature. Pay attention to all the conflicts Jesus gets into with Jewish leaders. It was simply the authors of the gospels plugging Jesus into their own times. For example, Barabbas's character likely comes from the author of Mark seeing his fellow Jews siding with murderers rather than the Son of God as a result of the war. Alright I'll start posting topics because now I'm rambling.

…but, wait…you earned a post-graduate degree in conjecture?! 


Yes and whoever wrote Corinthians was facing the same debates I'm giving you! Of course they paint those who don't follow Christianity or have "heretical" views as deficient! It's not like anyone read that anyway with the literacy rate between 3%-5%. Those who heard the gospel and letters simply heard and didn't read it. Therefore, those passages were spoken in ways of swaying listeners rather than what we are capable of reading today. Not to mention, the message was laughed at until the gospels cleared things up. Anyways, I think that's enough explanation as to why the scholars are painted poorly in the New Testament.
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« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2012, 10:23:04 am »
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Yes and whoever wrote Corinthians was facing the same debates I'm giving you! Of course they paint those who don't follow Christianity or have "heretical" views as deficient! It's not like anyone read that anyway with the literacy rate between 3%-5%. Those who heard the gospel and letters simply heard and didn't read it. Therefore, those passages were spoken in ways of swaying listeners rather than what we are capable of reading today.

Huh  So, the letters mean something different depending on whether you have them read to you, verses reading them yourself?!

---

can a mod please check this guy's ip?...he is displaying Derekish tendencies.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2012, 04:02:48 pm »
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Yes and whoever wrote Corinthians was facing the same debates I'm giving you! Of course they paint those who don't follow Christianity or have "heretical" views as deficient! It's not like anyone read that anyway with the literacy rate between 3%-5%. Those who heard the gospel and letters simply heard and didn't read it. Therefore, those passages were spoken in ways of swaying listeners rather than what we are capable of reading today.

Huh  So, the letters mean something different depending on whether you have them read to you, verses reading them yourself?!

---

can a mod please check this guy's ip?...he is displaying Derekish tendencies.

You just spun what I said. If it's read directly to you yes, but it wasn't read word for word. The message was spoken to give hope to the less fortunate and that's how it was received. Anyways, they're only political documents written by the oppressed in the first century as members of the movement faced persecution and refused to pay taxes because they saw Christ as their king rather than Caesar. It's about as accurate of a picture as listening to Rush Limbaugh about Obama and then listening to Obama about Romney and taking both sets of information at face value.
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« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2012, 04:17:02 pm »
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Huh  So, the letters mean something different depending on whether you have them read to you, verses reading them yourself?!

You just spun what I said. If it's read directly to you yes, but it wasn't read word for word.

and the hits just keep on coming...You know, for someone claiming to be educated, your imagination sure does lead you to make a lot of wild and baseless claims.


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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2012, 06:17:26 pm »
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Huh  So, the letters mean something different depending on whether you have them read to you, verses reading them yourself?!

You just spun what I said. If it's read directly to you yes, but it wasn't read word for word.

and the hits just keep on coming...You know, for someone claiming to be educated, your imagination sure does lead you to make a lot of wild and baseless claims.


The base is obvious to anybody who's ever made any study of information dissemination in primarily oral societies at all. Even if the ruling class is literate, a society that's 95-97% oral is primarily oral for purposes of looking at the spread of a populist religious movement.
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A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

Nathan-land.  As much fun as watching paint dry... literally.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2012, 07:31:08 pm »
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Huh  So, the letters mean something different depending on whether you have them read to you, verses reading them yourself?!

You just spun what I said. If it's read directly to you yes, but it wasn't read word for word.

and the hits just keep on coming...You know, for someone claiming to be educated, your imagination sure does lead you to make a lot of wild and baseless claims.


The base is obvious to anybody who's ever made any study of information dissemination in primarily oral societies at all. Even if the ruling class is literate, a society that's 95-97% oral is primarily oral for purposes of looking at the spread of a populist religious movement.


 Yo, doesn't matter if the society is 99% illiterate, doesn't mean the letters can't be read word for word.  before my kids could read, I read their books to them word for word.  the only time I didn't is when a book's vocabulary was over their heads...but there are many oral discussions documented in the NT (the gospels and Acts are full of quotes from these types of discussions), and they’re all at the same level as the written epistles.  

After all, relaying the Gospel doesn’t require a highfalutin vocabulary…unless of course, you’re trying to explain the Gospel to a bunch of theological “scholars” who are blind to the scripture and can’t argue their way out of a paper bag.

1Cor 2: 1 “When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. 6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.”

Colossians 4:16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers and sisters.

In other words, the gospel was given in the every day language of the common man, and the letters were to be read to all believers.

Don’t you hate it when the scripture has every argument against it already covered?!


« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 07:52:54 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Tidewater_Wave
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« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2012, 09:59:44 pm »
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Huh  So, the letters mean something different depending on whether you have them read to you, verses reading them yourself?!

You just spun what I said. If it's read directly to you yes, but it wasn't read word for word.

and the hits just keep on coming...You know, for someone claiming to be educated, your imagination sure does lead you to make a lot of wild and baseless claims.




This is rhetoric. The problem is you keep using the Bible to aruge points that it was never meant to argue.
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King
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« Reply #123 on: March 06, 2012, 11:02:06 am »
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They COULD have been read word for word, but the odds of this occuring in every case is so low that its absolutely impossible. Even if every literate missionary did the word for word duty (again, even if optomistic, you have to say at most 99% did; someone had to have skipped out on something somewhere or else you're saying there is no such thing as human error or free will), the remaining 95 percent of illiterates would not have spread it the same way. A man listening to the missionary who goes home and tells his brother, his wife, and his kids about it would only remember the juicy details (the cruxification, ressurrection, and promise to return soon) and none of the rest.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #124 on: March 06, 2012, 11:38:24 am »
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They COULD have been read word for word, but the odds of this occuring in every case is so low that its absolutely impossible. Even if every literate missionary did the word for word duty (again, even if optomistic, you have to say at most 99% did; someone had to have skipped out on something somewhere or else you're saying there is no such thing as human error or free will), the remaining 95 percent of illiterates would not have spread it the same way. A man listening to the missionary who goes home and tells his brother, his wife, and his kids about it would only remember the juicy details (the cruxification, ressurrection, and promise to return soon) and none of the rest.

granted, but Tidewater was saying there are different meanings to the epistles depending if someone read it as opposed to having it read to them…as if the words somehow take on different meanings.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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