Can some one please explain something for me...

[CLARENCE 2015!]

For an old conservative living in the South- I believe I am progressive for gay rights. I support gay marriage and adoption since it provides alternative for abortion, I was ok with the repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell- I belive some one is born gay and cannot change it

What I do NOT understand is cross dressers and why there is a push to give them rights as if they were born that way. No one wakes up an intentionally is attacted to men, but people choose what clothes to put on in the morning- drag queens are doing so because they choose to, so why the hell does anyone want to let them go into a womans bathroom?

I am not trying to sound like a jackass- I dont want to be ignorant but I want to understand this subject... do people believe cross dressers cant help but do that or is it something else?

[© tweed]

some people argue that (or feel that) the gender binary is restrictive and doesn't encapsulate the true nature of certain people.  and I'm not sure what enforcement mechanism can be proposed here.  we don't want to check peoples' genitals at the entry of a public restroom.  this isn't a major issue.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Don't worry, you don't sound like a jackass, Clarence. The fact that you want to understand this already means that you have a much less jackass-ish outlook on this than not only most people in your age group and region, but most people in general.

The question isn't so much one of cross-dressers wanting rights as cross-dressers as it is one of people who, for various reasons that I'd probably have a very hard time explaining, genuinely do not feel that the combination of the sex that they were born with and the set of associations or social roles that that sex supposedly has matches up with who they are. It's a little hard to explain to somebody who doesn't have the experience of feeling this way, and it's certainly harder to explain than homosexuality is. Think of it as a feeling of indefinable but critical 'wrongness' about the body one has or the expectations of the body one has; or as a feeling of indefinable but critical 'rightness' about another sort of body.

I understand that this is very hard to wrap one's head around even if one did not grow up in the environment of a previous time and a conservative place. I'm probably not the best person to explain what exactly this sort of thing feels like or entails for a person to somebody who has no experience of it, but if you take it for granted that for some people who would fall into the general category of 'cross-dressers' there is much more going on than just a desire to wear pretty clothes for whatever reason, and that this is for those people a feature of how they perceive their gender that really can't be changed (similar to how homosexuality can't be changed, at least not deliberately), it becomes a question of discrimination on the basis of sex. I hope that that's easier for you to understand in that context, and if it isn't I'm sorry I have not perhaps been explaining this well enough.

[opebo]

Nothing is more arbitrary or person than the clothes one wears, clarence..  why should we judge what people aught to wear?  Here in Thailand there are large numbers of 'ladyboys' - really quite accomplished cross dressers.  I do believe most of them use the ladies room, but its not a big issue as they are attracted to men.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I appreciate you guys trying to explain... Nathan you did help me understand a bit what these people ar ethinking

[Redalgo]

Notions of gender and the roles assigned with them are part of a socially constructed perception of reality. As one grows up in an environment where most folks reinforce those notions of reality it is easy to begin confusing them with objective understandings of what is real. The body one is born with does not imply a certain manner in which they are "supposed" to think or behave. I do cede that there are a handful of beliefs that are nearly universal among human beings but many of the fine details of culture are created in the minds of people by themselves - not painstakingly derived from some sort of higher understanding about what is true or false, and right or wrong.

These sorts of topics are magnets for well-intentioned misunderstandings, since some people do not feel the values, attitudes, sense of identity, or lifestyle society suggests they ought to embrace are compatible with those that, on a personal level, they believe are proper or just feel right. One ends up having to decide whether to conform at the cost of living a lie, be true to oneself at the risk of drawing unwanted negative attention from relatively "normal" people in society, or to strike a more moderate balance between the two. To others it is all too easy to confuse a person who is different with one who is inappropriate, diseased, impure, or some sort of cultural threat.

On a political level the question becomes to what extent we are willing to allow folks to use their rights and freedoms to do things we might not understand, approve of, or consider healthy. Or in other words, to what extent are we willing to tolerate expressions of and feelings about perceptions of reality different than our own? Proponents of modernist/humanist and traditionalist/normative points of view can and often do clash over this sort of stuff.

I have completely made my peace with cross dressers and people of various sexual orientations - though when it comes to gender I am still trying to overcome a temptation to refer to people using words that reference their physical sex instead of their gender identity - but I find it easy to sympathize with and accept people of nearly all kinds for who they are. Perhaps it is in part because I am well-accustomed to not fitting in with all the political, religious, and behavioral norms of my community, and in one respect have an extremely atypical sense of personal identity.

[opebo]

I appreciate you guys trying to explain... Nathan you did help me understand a bit what these people ar ethinking

How about the photos?? eh?  Hot no?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I appreciate you guys trying to explain... Nathan you did help me understand a bit what these people ar ethinking

How about the photos?? eh?  Hot no?

One of the courses I'm taking this semester actually gets into the differences in cultural construction between Thai kathoey and transgender folks in the West. I thought of you when it came up.

[The Mikado]

I think that the distinction between crossdressers/transvestites and full-fledged transsexuals (people who, as Nathan described, feel alien to their own body etc.) is worth making.

[opebo]

One of the courses I'm taking this semester actually gets into the differences in cultural construction between Thai kathoey and transgender folks in the West. I thought of you when it came up.

Interesting!  What did it say?  Maybe the cultural construction has something to do with why they're so much more attractive.. but it may also just be the small, slender builds of Thais generally...

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I appreciate you guys trying to explain... Nathan you did help me understand a bit what these people ar ethinking

Are those men???

How about the photos?? eh?  Hot no?

[Alcon]

Wait clarence, are you asking about cross-dressers or transsexuals?

Cross-dressers (a lot of whom are straight, believe it or not) mostly do it for fun and show.  I doubt any of them are demanding to use the other bathroom (other than to be absurd.)

Transgendered/transsexual people are a different deal.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Alcon- I was asking about cross dressers  the people Nathan was describing. The ones who still have male parts but believe they are female so they should use the womens bathroom andv ice versa... not the ones who do it for fun but the ones who think they are the other sex

Those who are transgender and have the other parts are alredy that gender... I dont know if that is controversial or not

[Alcon]

Alcon- I was asking about cross dressers  the people Nathan was describing. The ones who still have male parts but believe they are female so they should use the womens bathroom andv ice versa... not the ones who do it for fun but the ones who think they are the other sex

Those who are transgender and have the other parts are alredy that gender... I dont know if that is controversial or not

Those aren't really cross-dressers, though.  Cross-dressers do it for fun.  Those are transgendered people.  I have a couple of friends who are transgendered.  Why do they use the bathroom of the sex they dress as?  Because otherwise people freak the hell out.  (Although the risks of coed bathrooms are pretty overstated.)

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

One of the courses I'm taking this semester actually gets into the differences in cultural construction between Thai kathoey and transgender folks in the West. I thought of you when it came up.

Interesting!  What did it say?  Maybe the cultural construction has something to do with why they're so much more attractive.. but it may also just be the small, slender builds of Thais generally...

Well, we're going to be getting into it more later in the semester, and I'll be sure to keep you posted when we get to that stage, but what Professor Shah's been talking about so far mainly involves the problems of anthropologists from Western countries going to places like Thailand or Indonesia or Africa and running into these phenomena and treating them as if they were the same sorts of phenomena as transgender identity in the West, which is poor and somewhat culturally imperialistic ethnographic practice. It seems that these sorts of presentations and ways of life are more traditionally ingrained in East and Southeast Asia, so I imagine that as such they would have more set modes of presentation associated with them, which might be why you find them generally more attractive (I haven't done enough reading or looking into the subject of kathoey to have an opinion on that particular topic).

[Link]

For an old conservative living in the South- I believe I am progressive for gay rights. I support gay marriage and adoption since it provides alternative for abortion, I was ok with the repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell- I belive some one is born gay and cannot change it

What I do NOT understand is cross dressers and why there is a push to give them rights as if they were born that way. No one wakes up an intentionally is attacted to men, but people choose what clothes to put on in the morning- drag queens are doing so because they choose to, so why the hell does anyone want to let them go into a womans bathroom?

I am not trying to sound like a jackass- I dont want to be ignorant but I want to understand this subject... do people believe cross dressers cant help but do that or is it something else?

I don't think you "sound like a jackass."  I think there are a small population of people in this country that have legitimate issues and concerns and a large population of people that just like to stir stuff up.

Merely having conservative values and common sense does not make you a bigot.  Most of the planet has conservative values to some degree.  I for one am not on board with allowing cross dressing everywhere and coed bathrooms.  At many work sites (ie Walmart) everyone regardless of gender wears slacks and a collared shirt.  No skirts and no blouses.  Their lives don't end.  The scrubs in a hospital are identical for women and men.  Scrub pants and scrub shirt.  No skirts and no blouses.  Nurses don't commit mass suicide from depression.  And trust me those scrubs are NOT flattering.

Someone that says they are incapable of typing a TPS report because they are wearing pants is coocoo.

Every single thing in society doesn't have to be debated.  When I go to work I leave many of my "rights" at the door.  We conform to have a cohesive work place and get stuff done.  We don't all go around expressing our individual quirks and demand to be accepted.  I work with some very conservative people.  I don't discuss politics even when I think someone is saying something inappropriate.  Many of my coworkers think I'm friends with them.  I'm not.  I just fake it to keep a civil work place and after work I associate with people more to my liking.

As far as the non work environment is concerned.  Well that's kind of up to the individual mostly.  Just be prepared for some blow back if you are a 180 lb hairy guy walking around in high heels.  I don't go driving through the back woods of Mississippi in a prius discussing gay rights with the locals at local honky tonk bars.  I have a right to but it would seem like an incredibly dumb thing to do.

I think women want their own space.  I don't think when women go to a ladies' room they are thinking, "what would make this place even better is some dude whipping his [censored] out and [censored] all over the seat."  I think a woman on her period who has an "accident" isn't going to want to run to a restroom full of dudes.  I think we should just give the ladies there space and leave it at that.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

For an old conservative living in the South- I believe I am progressive for gay rights. I support gay marriage and adoption since it provides alternative for abortion, I was ok with the repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell- I belive some one is born gay and cannot change it

What I do NOT understand is cross dressers and why there is a push to give them rights as if they were born that way. No one wakes up an intentionally is attacted to men, but people choose what clothes to put on in the morning- drag queens are doing so because they choose to, so why the hell does anyone want to let them go into a womans bathroom?

I am not trying to sound like a jackass- I dont want to be ignorant but I want to understand this subject... do people believe cross dressers cant help but do that or is it something else?

I think it's great you're wanting to understand a bit more.

Yes, the key point is the difference between a cross-dresser (transvestite), who does it for fun/pleasure, and a man or woman who is biologically male or female, but psycho-sexually and innately feels they are the other gender.

I understand why some have issues with someone with penis using the female bathroom and vice-versa. But read up on the mentality of someone with transgender issues, it's both fascinating and often tragic. 

[HST1948]

Clarence,
I'm glad to see that you are trying to understand this complicated issue. I think Nathan really hit the nail with this his posts.  I wanted to add that in medical school I did a psychiatry rotation where I got to interview some transgendered patients and have a lecture on sexuality, including transgenderism. What I learned, which is such poorly understood and in my opinion very sad, is that these individuals feel like they are a woman trapped in a mans body (or vice-avers). Most people psychologically understand and accept their sex around age three and begin to play into and fall into expected social roles.  For the individuals that you are questioning, they "accept" the gender that is counter to their, for lack of a better term, genetics. These individuals often struggle through childhood and adulthood not being able to formulate a complete sense of self because of their own confusion about their sex. This confusion often manifests its self in depression and psychological distress.  The patients I spoke to told me that it was like "being trapped in someone else's body with no means of escape".  The transgendered people I have had the opportunity to interview in my rotations honestly fell like they have been born into the wrong body, and when they look in the mirror they either do not see themselves or they see someone of the of the sex that they psychologically perceive themselves to be looking back at them. I would like to stress that the people you seem to be asking about to not choose their lives, rather all evidence seems to suggest that there is a combination of underlying genetic, environmental and societal factors influencing their lives. These are just my observations, and please take them for what they are worth: a medical student who has had a couple semesters doing rotations in various psychiatric institutions. 

As for the issue you presented with allowing them to use the bathroom of their choice, I agree its a complicated issue. I can see arguments for both sides of this issue, and I guess the argument essentially comes down to the psychology of a person's sex verses the physical characteristics that are associated with sex.  I hope that this post helped you understand the issue a little bit better, and again props to Nathan for his post. 

[Link]

Clarence,
I'm glad to see that you are trying to understand this complicated issue. I think Nathan really hit the nail with this his posts.  I wanted to add that in medical school I did a psychiatry rotation where I got to interview some transgendered patients and have a lecture on sexuality, including transgenderism. What I learned, which is such poorly understood and in my opinion very sad, is that these individuals feel like they are a woman trapped in a mans body (or vice-avers). Most people psychologically understand and accept their sex around age three and begin to play into and fall into expected social roles.  For the individuals that you are questioning, they "accept" the gender that is counter to their, for lack of a better term, genetics. These individuals often struggle through childhood and adulthood not being able to formulate a complete sense of self because of their own confusion about their sex. This confusion often manifests its self in depression and psychological distress.  The patients I spoke to told me that it was like "being trapped in someone else's body with no means of escape".  The transgendered people I have had the opportunity to interview in my rotations honestly fell like they have been born into the wrong body, and when they look in the mirror they either do not see themselves or they see someone of the of the sex that they psychologically perceive themselves to be looking back at them. I would like to stress that the people you seem to be asking about to not choose their lives, rather all evidence seems to suggest that there is a combination of underlying genetic, environmental and societal factors influencing their lives. These are just my observations, and please take them for what they are worth: a medical student who has had a couple semesters doing rotations in various psychiatric institutions. 

As for the issue you presented with allowing them to use the bathroom of their choice, I agree its a complicated issue. I can see arguments for both sides of this issue, and I guess the argument essentially comes down to the psychology of a person's sex verses the physical characteristics that are associated with sex.  I hope that this post helped you understand the issue a little bit better, and again props to Nathan for his post. 

Having gone to medical school you've spent a lot of time in hospitals and operating rooms in particular where EVERYBODY dresses the same.  There is no loss of gender identity or "depression."  An irrational fixation on clothing I would think is indicative of other psychological issues.  If a man wishes to dress in a skirt and blouse in their free time that is there business.  But even in normal work places women are barred from wearing this type of attire and it doesn't cause them to feel like they are "a woman trapped in a man's body."  Sure some of them complain but they live.

[Jacobtm]

The issue of trans-genders, gender-queers, pansexuals, a-sexuals, and all this really puts the lie to the gender binary.

There are people who don't fit into the categories: Straight Man/Gay Man/Straight Woman/Gay Woman.

There are other people who change how they identify themselves many times throughout their lives. I've known people who've presented themselves first as straight girls, then came out as lesbians, then came out as trans men attracted to women, then as gay trans men.

Let them dress how they want and have sex with who they want. There is no harm, just treat everyone with respect.

If their identity is confusing to you, well, so what?

[Link]

Let them dress how they want...

Unfortunately in a lot of work environments no one gets to "dress how they want."  They dress all men and women the same.  And believe it or not no one dies.

[exopolitician]

Just watch an episode of Drag Race, it'll explain a lot.

[HST1948]

Clarence,
I'm glad to see that you are trying to understand this complicated issue. I think Nathan really hit the nail with this his posts.  I wanted to add that in medical school I did a psychiatry rotation where I got to interview some transgendered patients and have a lecture on sexuality, including transgenderism. What I learned, which is such poorly understood and in my opinion very sad, is that these individuals feel like they are a woman trapped in a mans body (or vice-avers). Most people psychologically understand and accept their sex around age three and begin to play into and fall into expected social roles.  For the individuals that you are questioning, they "accept" the gender that is counter to their, for lack of a better term, genetics. These individuals often struggle through childhood and adulthood not being able to formulate a complete sense of self because of their own confusion about their sex. This confusion often manifests its self in depression and psychological distress.  The patients I spoke to told me that it was like "being trapped in someone else's body with no means of escape".  The transgendered people I have had the opportunity to interview in my rotations honestly fell like they have been born into the wrong body, and when they look in the mirror they either do not see themselves or they see someone of the of the sex that they psychologically perceive themselves to be looking back at them. I would like to stress that the people you seem to be asking about to not choose their lives, rather all evidence seems to suggest that there is a combination of underlying genetic, environmental and societal factors influencing their lives. These are just my observations, and please take them for what they are worth: a medical student who has had a couple semesters doing rotations in various psychiatric institutions. 

As for the issue you presented with allowing them to use the bathroom of their choice, I agree its a complicated issue. I can see arguments for both sides of this issue, and I guess the argument essentially comes down to the psychology of a person's sex verses the physical characteristics that are associated with sex.  I hope that this post helped you understand the issue a little bit better, and again props to Nathan for his post. 

Having gone to medical school you've spent a lot of time in hospitals and operating rooms in particular where EVERYBODY dresses the same.  There is no loss of gender identity or "depression."  An irrational fixation on clothing I would think is indicative of other psychological issues.  If a man wishes to dress in a skirt and blouse in their free time that is there business.  But even in normal work places women are barred from wearing this type of attire and it doesn't cause them to feel like they are "a woman trapped in a man's body."  Sure some of them complain but they live.

What you said is true, but as you said the type of attire and it doesn't cause people to feel like they are "a woman trapped in a man's body. My point, rather, was to state that there are underlying genetic, environmental, and psychosocial factors, out of a persons control, that cause a person to truly fell like they were born into the wrong body.  The clothes that they chose to wear are just one "side effect" of these underlying factors, not a cause of of their depression or "trapped feelings". And, certainly as you point out many of these individuals also have other underlying psychological issues.

[Link]

Clarence,
I'm glad to see that you are trying to understand this complicated issue. I think Nathan really hit the nail with this his posts.  I wanted to add that in medical school I did a psychiatry rotation where I got to interview some transgendered patients and have a lecture on sexuality, including transgenderism. What I learned, which is such poorly understood and in my opinion very sad, is that these individuals feel like they are a woman trapped in a mans body (or vice-avers). Most people psychologically understand and accept their sex around age three and begin to play into and fall into expected social roles.  For the individuals that you are questioning, they "accept" the gender that is counter to their, for lack of a better term, genetics. These individuals often struggle through childhood and adulthood not being able to formulate a complete sense of self because of their own confusion about their sex. This confusion often manifests its self in depression and psychological distress.  The patients I spoke to told me that it was like "being trapped in someone else's body with no means of escape".  The transgendered people I have had the opportunity to interview in my rotations honestly fell like they have been born into the wrong body, and when they look in the mirror they either do not see themselves or they see someone of the of the sex that they psychologically perceive themselves to be looking back at them. I would like to stress that the people you seem to be asking about to not choose their lives, rather all evidence seems to suggest that there is a combination of underlying genetic, environmental and societal factors influencing their lives. These are just my observations, and please take them for what they are worth: a medical student who has had a couple semesters doing rotations in various psychiatric institutions. 

As for the issue you presented with allowing them to use the bathroom of their choice, I agree its a complicated issue. I can see arguments for both sides of this issue, and I guess the argument essentially comes down to the psychology of a person's sex verses the physical characteristics that are associated with sex.  I hope that this post helped you understand the issue a little bit better, and again props to Nathan for his post. 

Having gone to medical school you've spent a lot of time in hospitals and operating rooms in particular where EVERYBODY dresses the same.  There is no loss of gender identity or "depression."  An irrational fixation on clothing I would think is indicative of other psychological issues.  If a man wishes to dress in a skirt and blouse in their free time that is there business.  But even in normal work places women are barred from wearing this type of attire and it doesn't cause them to feel like they are "a woman trapped in a man's body."  Sure some of them complain but they live.

What you said is true, but as you said the type of attire and it doesn't cause people to feel like they are "a woman trapped in a man's body. My point, rather, was to state that there are underlying genetic, environmental, and psychosocial factors, out of a persons control, that cause a person to truly fell like they were born into the wrong body.  The clothes that they chose to wear are just one "side effect" of these underlying factors, not a cause of of their depression or "trapped feelings". And, certainly as you point out many of these individuals also have other underlying psychological issues.

I think it is an area the definitely needs more study and our sensitivity.  But we have to have some rules as a society.  We can't accomodate every wish or desire no matter the basis (genetic, psychological, etc).  The tough part is where do you draw the line.  If my mom was in a public restroom she really wouldn't feel comforable with a 200lb hairy guy wearing a wig make up and high heels coming in.  So who's emotions should we protect?

If the guy was a post op transgender girl and looked like a girl then there really wouldn't be an issue if she/he went to the women's room.  I think it is a case by case basis taking all parties' emotions and mental health into account.

[Jacobtm]

Let them dress how they want...

Unfortunately in a lot of work environments no one gets to "dress how they want."  They dress all men and women the same.  And believe it or not no one dies.

Well if you work in a place that requires a uniform, that's one thing.

I'm just talking about in their private lives. If someone with a penis wants to wear a skirt and heels, there's no problem.