Christianity as a tool of genocide/conquest/subjugation in the New World

[Jacobtm]

This is the Christian World:



The 5 largest Christian nations are:

The United States
Brazil
Mexico
Russia
The Philippines

I'm not terribly familiar with how Christianity came to be the dominant religion of Russia.

However, in the other 4 largest Christian nations, there have been two ways Christianity came to dominate:

1) Genocide against non-Christian peoples

In the United States, as well as in many other places, European Christians simply came, killed off everyone who lived there, and re-settled the land as a Christian nation.

2) Forcing Christianity on slaves

In most of the Americas, wherever White people wiped out the indigenous population, they stole Africans to work as slaves. These people were stripped of their religions and cultures, and taught to be Christians as well.

3) Conquest of indigenous peoples

In Mexico, Central America, and the Andes, there were large, complex, ancient societies that already existed. The European Christians were unable to completely wipe these peoples out, and instead conquered them and ruled over them. After centuries of destroying indigenous culture, religion, and society, they converted these people to Christianity too.

You can see here that in The Americas, there is almost no place that has both Black and Indigenous populations. The White European Christians only bothered taking African slaves where they had already wiped out the indigenous peoples.



Further, the mixing of the races in the Americas shows that essentially, white men raped the women of the Indigenous and African peoples in the Americas, so that the male lineage throughout most of the Americas is disproportionately white, whereas the female lineage is disproportionately African or Indigenous. Except in places like Peru or Haiti where the population was barely white at all, this trend holds true everywhere there is significant mixing.

The Christian Men came over, essentially took Indigenous and African men out of the gene pool altogether, and had their way with the Indigenous and African women in the areas they had conquered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_Brazil#Genetic_studies

All in all, a violent history based on the most brutal and savage instincts of humanity. Not at all a religion of love, peace, or brotherhood. Rather one mixing the tactics of subjugation, genocide and rape.

Edited by mod to get the pictures narrow enough to not break forum formatting.

[CathKhan]

As did Islam as I recall. However, are all Muslims evil? Is Islam inherently evil because of what people did in its name? Your lovely little argument has been used before. Keep trying though. One day you may strike gold.

[Jacobtm]

As did Islam as I recall. However, are all Muslims evil? Is Islam inherently evil because of what people did in its name? Your lovely little argument has been used before. Keep trying though. One day you may strike gold.

Are all Muslims evil? No. Are all Christians evil? No.

Have both Islam and Christianity been used as tools of conquest, rape, genocide and subjugation? Of course.

They've both historically been forces for evil.

How do you live with yourself as a Christian knowing that this whole country was cleared of its peoples in a series of wars that lasted hundreds of years? Does the genocide in this country's past not bother you? What about stealing Africans and forcing Christianity on them?

Is all that just fine in your eyes?

[CathKhan]

As did Islam as I recall. However, are all Muslims evil? Is Islam inherently evil because of what people did in its name? Your lovely little argument has been used before. Keep trying though. One day you may strike gold.

Are all Muslims evil? No. Are all Christians evil? No.

Have both Islam and Christianity been used as tools of conquest, rape, genocide and subjugation? Of course.

They've both historically been forces for evil.

How do you live with yourself as a Christian knowing that this whole country was cleared of its peoples in a series of wars that lasted hundreds of years? Does the genocide in this country's past not bother you? What about stealing Africans and forcing Christianity on them?

Is all that just fine in your eyes?

Nope, it is not fine. However, there is nothing I can do about that, it having happened. I did not do it, and I'm pretty sure even my ancestors didn't do it, unless you trace my Italian side back to Rome and they did something there. Are you trying to somehow make this a collective guilt thing where I owe someone an apology because I happen to follow the same religion as one of their ancestor's dead oppressors? People shouldn't owe other people because of what someone else who is in a minuscule connected to person one did something to someone who is in some minuscule way connected to person two (confusing sentence, I know). Nor do these imperialists, slave traders, etc. somehow represent Christianity because they used it as an "excuse" to do something horrible. That'd be similar to having MLK apologize for black radicalism or LBJ apologize for white racism. So yes, I am sorry that people long dead that I am probably unrelated to except in the most slight and insignificant manner may have done something to someone that I could not and can not stop. (or who knows? Maybe my ancestors were among the oppressed)

[Sibboleth]

And I suppose you think that this is extremely clever.

[asexual trans victimologist]

You can see here that in The Americas, there is almost no place that has both Black and Indigenous populations. The White European Christians only bothered taking African slaves where they had already wiped out the indigenous peoples.

I stopped reading at this point but I'll try to guess the rest of the argument based on the thread title: Something about Christianity as an inherently rapacious force, Christianity as an a priori cause of rather than an a posteriori excuse for genocidal mania, possibly some sort of hamfisted application of Matthew 10.34 to secular politics along the exact same lines as the people who made excuses for this stuff to begin with? Something like that?

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

This is a very silly thread.

[Jacobtm]

Nor do these imperialists, slave traders, etc. somehow represent Christianity because they used it as an "excuse" to do something horrible.

This is the crux of it.

It wasn't an ''excuse'' to do something horrible. If you look at history, the entire history of the Americas, it was Christianity and Imperialism and Slavery and Conquest all working together. It was billed as a Christian's imperative to go civilize the red savage in the Americas.

The whole reason Christianity is the dominant religion in the Americas is because of force, plain and simple.

I'm not trying to say YOU are responsible for it, Italian-Americans are latecomers to the scene. Yet it's undeniable that Christians enslaved, conquered, and raped their way to ascendancy in the Americas.

Something about Christianity as an inherently rapacious force, Christianity as an a priori cause of rather than an a posteriori excuse for genocidal mania, possibly some sort of hamfisted application of Matthew 10.34 to secular politics along the exact same lines as the people who made excuses for this stuff to begin with? Something like that?

Not at all. Humans have conquered each other and enslaved each other and imposed religions on each other for all of history, far before Christianity existed.

Christian conquerors are little different than any type of conquerors. They wipe or enslave their opponents, rape and pillage, enforce their ways on conquered people, etc. Pretty standard fair.

It's just maddening when people talk about Christianity as a force for peace, love, or anything like that. It's easy to say that once you've killed all the dissenters and forced people to believe in your religion.

[asexual trans victimologist]

It's just maddening when people talk about Christianity as a force for peace, love, or anything like that. It's easy to say that once you've killed all the dissenters and forced people to believe in your religion.

So you just don't understand the a priori reason/a posteriori justification thing, then. That's all right. It's less off-base than some people we could name who try to make this sort of argument.

Churchmen are not the Church.

[Jacobtm]

So you just don't understand the a priori reason/a posteriori justification thing, then. That's all right. It's less off-base than some people we could name who try to make this sort of argument.

Churchmen are not the Church.

Explain what you mean by that.

Churchmen indeed did the bidding of the Church.

Are you saying that Churchmen did all the pillaging without the Church's knowledge or blessings? That's silly if so.

Especially talking about Spanish/Portuguese colonies in the Americas, the Church was intimately involved in all the evil deeds perpetrated by Christians.

[asexual trans victimologist]

So you just don't understand the a priori reason/a posteriori justification thing, then. That's all right. It's less off-base than some people we could name who try to make this sort of argument.

Churchmen are not the Church.

Explain what you mean by that.

Churchmen indeed did the bidding of the Church.

Are you saying that Churchmen did all the pillaging without the Church's knowledge or blessings? That's silly if so.

Especially talking about Spanish/Portuguese colonies in the Americas, the Church was intimately involved in all the evil deeds perpetrated by Christians.

Churchmen composed and controlled the Church Militant, and drove the Church Militant to pile up sin upon sin and damage the whole incorporate Body. They sinned against the Church Militant by leading it into temptation.

The Church Triumphant, by contrast, has never sinned, nor will it ever.

[Jacobtm]

The Church Triumphant, aka Heaven, doesn't exist.

It is just an imaginary thing no realer than Valhalla or Hades. Made up stories from the bronze age.

[asexual trans victimologist]

The Church Triumphant, by contrast, has never sinned, nor will it ever.

The Church Triumphant, aka Heaven, doesn't exist.

It is just an imaginary thing no realer than Valhalla or Hades. Made up stories from the bronze age.

違う。

I also don't think the Bronze Age refers to the time period that you think it refers to. Read a book other than devoutly secular-humanist reactionary agitprop.

Also, fix your formatting. Your thread is hard to read on more levels than just the content.

[Communists For McCain]

You know, the ridiculous "your religion is evil because a bunch of imperialist dickheads twisted it's message and therefore because of the actions of a few you're all hypocrites!" argument is one thing.
That is a forgivable error Jacobtm

What isn't forgivable is you having the gall, the audacity, to post that mega-ass sized map that has caused me to have to use my cursor just to read every post in this thread.

Damn you Jacobtm.
Damn you to Hell.

EDIT: Thank you True Fed.

[asexual trans victimologist]

You know, the ridiculous "your religion is evil because a bunch of imperialist dickheads twisted it's message and therefore because of the actions of a few you're all hypocrites!" argument is one thing.
That is a forgivable error Tweed.

What isn't forgivable is you having the gall, the audacity, to post that mega-ass sized map that has caused me to have to use my cursor just to read every post in this thread.

Damn you Tweed.
Damn you to Hell.

This isn't Tweed, unless Tweed has two accounts both of which he makes regular use of.

[Communists For McCain]

You know, the ridiculous "your religion is evil because a bunch of imperialist dickheads twisted it's message and therefore because of the actions of a few you're all hypocrites!" argument is one thing.
That is a forgivable error Tweed.

What isn't forgivable is you having the gall, the audacity, to post that mega-ass sized map that has caused me to have to use my cursor just to read every post in this thread.

Damn you Tweed.
Damn you to Hell.

This isn't Tweed, unless Tweed has two accounts both of which he makes regular use of.

[/self facepalm]

Sorry, but when I see a green I-NY avatar ranting and raving about some pseudo-intellectual bull that makes him feel like the greatest thing since sliced bread I usually assume it's Tweed.

[asexual trans victimologist]

You know, the ridiculous "your religion is evil because a bunch of imperialist dickheads twisted it's message and therefore because of the actions of a few you're all hypocrites!" argument is one thing.
That is a forgivable error Tweed.

What isn't forgivable is you having the gall, the audacity, to post that mega-ass sized map that has caused me to have to use my cursor just to read every post in this thread.

Damn you Tweed.
Damn you to Hell.

This isn't Tweed, unless Tweed has two accounts both of which he makes regular use of.

[/self facepalm]

Sorry, but when I see a green I-NY avatar ranting and raving about some pseudo-intellectual bull that makes him feel like the greatest thing since sliced bread I usually assume it's Tweed.

Tweed's pseudo-intellectual bull is usually a little more respectable than this.

[A cowboy always follows his beard]

This guy must be a Fundamentalist Atheist.

[asexual trans victimologist]

This guy must be a Fundamentalist Atheist.

It's hard to accomplish that, since 'atheist', as a term describing a privation, can't be considered a religion. Fundamentalist secular humanist, maybe.

[Californian Tony]

Religion in general is a factor of oppression more often than not. Nothing particular about Christianity, except that, living in more-or-less secular societies, we are more lucid about it right now.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Religion in general is a factor of oppression more often than not. Nothing particular about Christianity, except that, living in more-or-less secular societies, we are more lucid about it right now.

I would submit that that's due to religion's nature as a formalized system of social exchange rather than its nature as religion.

[Governor Scott]

Personally, I worship Jesus- not Christianity.

[dead0man]

Wow...I'll ignore the bad coding and just read until there is a steaming pile of sh**t....well that didn't take long.

In the United States, as well as in many other places, European Christians simply came, killed off everyone who lived there, and re-settled the land as a Christian nation.

While they were far from saints when it came to the natives, the vast majority died not from some cracker with a bible and a hot poker, but...well, you know.  Not sure why you forgot when posting.  Maybe some biases?

[The Mikado]

Please don't pretend you know what you're talking about.

[ingemann]

I'm impressed I have rarely seen a thread so overflowing with fecal matter. Slave trade wasn't created by Christians, genocide wasn't created by Christians, conquest wasn't created by Christians. The conquest of America had less than nothing to do with Christianity, if it had anything to do with Christinity the Spanish would have made a attempt to spread Chritianity outside the easiely conquable and wealthy areas. The Spanish wanted riches and couldn't care less about spreading Christianity outside the areas that gave them that.