Chicago teachers asking for 30% raises over next 2 years

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

Krazen's obsession notwithstanding, you guys really think teachers should get a 30% raise? Maybe they can at least tie it to performance?

What is "performance"?

Again, can someone please answer this question...

[muon2]

I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

[memphis]

Krazen's obsession notwithstanding, you guys really think teachers should get a 30% raise? Maybe they can at least tie it to performance?

If the worst 30% get fired, the best 30% can get a 30% raise.  The way this industry is run just drives me nuts, but then you, and presumably everyone else around here, already knew that.

The proposal on its face of course is ludicrous. Let's reward failure.

I doubt very much this best 30% (however defined) wants a 30% increase in work load. That would put average class size at nearly 50.

[memphis]

I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Among people with advanced degrees living in one the nation's largest cities?
And just last year, the GOP was saying that $250k/year was middle-class. Make up your minds already.

[krazen1211]

a 30 hour week!

Because of course assessing student work and making out lesson plans takes absolutely no time at all.

Classroom time is important, but an effective teacher ends up spending at least one hour outside the classroom preparing for what happens inside the classroom.

Of course, the Chicago Public schools aren't really composed of effective teachers based on their NAEP results.

[krazen1211]

I did some Googling and every number I found was lower than $75k, which your source says is from 2008. This 2011 article, for example, says the number is 69k. Perhaps the source you cited is adding other forms of compensation to the salary. Generous either way, though.

And 30% is of course ridiculous, but that's how bargaining works.

Well, you can either believe the Chicago Public Schools on their own compensation, or not. Up to you.

[Torie]

Krazen's obsession notwithstanding, you guys really think teachers should get a 30% raise? Maybe they can at least tie it to performance?

What is "performance"?

Again, can someone please answer this question...

It is about measuring student progress from point A to B, given the type of student in the class. And yes, you have to test the students to measure it. Evaluation the performance of anyone has a subjective element of course, but most of us are so measured in our careers, and some of us advance, and some of us do not, and some of us are fired. Any other formula is a recipe for mediocrity or worse. You simply will not get the best and brightest to teach if everyone is paid basically the same, at a middle class salary. The best need to be paid much more, and the worst not allowed to stay in the classroom for long. You do that, and the profession will have much more prestige, and attract more motivated and talented individuals. And we need to start with the inner city schools, and do it ASAP. What we are doing there is just outrageous, and immoral. To me, it is the civil rights issue of the 21st century.

It is just so freaking obvious really.

[Badger]

I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

[© Tweed the Younger]

child poverty is at about 1/3 in Chicago.  let's talk about that instead.

[True Federalist]

a 30 hour week!

Because of course assessing student work and making out lesson plans takes absolutely no time at all.

Classroom time is important, but an effective teacher ends up spending at least one hour outside the classroom preparing for what happens inside the classroom.

Of course, the Chicago Public schools aren't really composed of effective teachers based on their NAEP results.

Why did I know you were going to make another jab about the teachers rather than admit that your idea of them having only a 30-hour work week was ludicrous nonsense.

I'll grant that many school districts fail miserably when it comes to hiring good teachers, but the solution to that problem is not to make the pay worse so that only bad teachers are willing to take the job.  This is not the 1950's krazen.  Educated females have far more options in employment than teaching and nursing, so there is no longer a pool of competent cheap labor for those professions.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

Krazen's obsession notwithstanding, you guys really think teachers should get a 30% raise? Maybe they can at least tie it to performance?

What is "performance"?

Again, can someone please answer this question...

It is about measuring student progress from point A to B

How do you do that?

given the type of student in the class.

How do you 'divide' students into types? I wish for specifics here. Not overly large liberal-capitalist-moralistic statements about 'performance' (or at least, not just those)

And yes, you have to test the students to measure it. Evaluation the performance of anyone has a subjective element of course, but most of us are so measured in our careers, and some of us advance, and some of us do not, and some of us are fired.

What type of testing? How regular? What are these students being tested on?

Any other formula is a recipe for mediocrity or worse. You simply will not get the best and brightest to teach if everyone is paid basically the same, at a middle class salary. The best need to be paid much more, and the worst not allowed to stay in the classroom for long.

So basically what you want is for teachers to be paid depending on how you well their students do at tests. In other words, you will reward people financially by gaming the test system. Yeah, can't see any problems here....

You do that, and the profession will have much more prestige, and attract more motivated and talented individuals. And we need to start with the inner city schools, and do it ASAP. What we are doing there is just outrageous, and immoral. To me, it is the civil rights issue of the 21st century.

And yet you seem to think the best way to do this is to launch a campaign against teachers' organizations (otherwise known as "unions"), demonizing "bad teachers" and often teachers in general and portraying them as parasites on the state (well, perhaps not you, but this is where the GOP rhetoric is heading). Yep, can't see any problem here....

It is just so freaking obvious really.

You want to replace learning with testing (which proves ability... to do tests) and in the process destroy teachers' independence all in the name of their benefit and prestige. Got you.

[muon2]

I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Among people with advanced degrees living in one the nation's largest cities?
And just last year, the GOP was saying that $250k/year was middle-class. Make up your minds already.

I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

The median income in Chicago is about 5K less than the nation as a whole. The upper quintiles for household income are generally similar to the US based on 2010 data. 30.3% of households in Chicago make more than 75K. If I expand to include all of Cook County with a median income about 2K higher than the US, 35.4% of households make more than 75K.

Either way my statement about 75K sitting in the second highest quintile is true for Chicago or Cook County, too.

[Torie]

How does one evaluate anyone then, given the long list of reasons as to why it is impossible?  How do you fire anyone? How do you ascertain competence?  And how do you find out if the students are learning anything? Are you telling me you can't fairly test for reading comprehension? Just ask the students to read a text they have not seen before, and then explain what it means. How could one teach to the test for that? Reading comprehension of course is the key here. The rest is more peripheral. If you can't read, you are going to fail, and have a menial job for life most likely.

Here's an idea. Why don't we try this approach for one major school district with problems, and see what happens over say 10 years, monitoring progress as we go?  Why don't we experiment?  What we do now ain't working, and there is no evidence spending more money on these dysfunctional school systems helps either. Read the Kansas City school district study, when a judge ordered the state to spend something like 15K a year per high school pupil, in 1980's to 1990's dollars. The result? No improvement in student performance at all.  None.

The quality of the teachers needs to be improved. What is an objective fact, is that most, particularly in the dysfunctional school districts (it would be interesting to get a percentage from a study here) go to third rate colleges and get C averages. They tend to be drones.

[freepcrusher]

How does one evaluate anyone then, given the long list of reasons as to why it is impossible?  How do you fire anyone? How do you ascertain competence?  And how do you find out if the students are learning anything? Are you telling me you can't fairly test for reading comprehension? Just ask the students to read a text they have not seen before, and then explain what it means. How could one teach to the test for that? Reading comprehension of course is the key here. The rest is more peripheral. If you can't read, you are going to fail, and have a menial job for life most likely.

Here's an idea. Why don't we try this approach for one major school district with problems, and see what happens over say 10 years, monitoring progress as we go?  Why don't we experiment?  What we do now ain't working, and there is no evidence spending more money on these dysfunctional school systems helps either. Read the Kansas City school district study, when a judge ordered the state to spend something like 15K a year per high school pupil, in 1980's to 1990's dollars. The result? No improvement in student performance at all.  None.

The quality of the teachers needs to be improved. What is an objective fact, is that most, particularly in the dysfunctional school districts (it would be interesting to get a percentage from a study here) go to third rate colleges and get C averages. They tend to be drones.

Anyone here agree that there should be stricter tests in who in terms of teachers gets hired. I think it should be sort of like passing the bar exams or passing your boards. A master's in Education might help. Another issue is that administrators should decide which level of school needs the most cash poured into. Some say elementary is the most important, some say jr high is, while others say high school is. Some food for thought I guess.

[asexual trans victimologist]

I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Among people with advanced degrees living in one the nation's largest cities?
And just last year, the GOP was saying that $250k/year was middle-class. Make up your minds already.

I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

The median income in Chicago is about 5K less than the nation as a whole. The upper quintiles for household income are generally similar to the US based on 2010 data. 30.3% of households in Chicago make more than 75K. If I expand to include all of Cook County with a median income about 2K higher than the US, 35.4% of households make more than 75K.

Either way my statement about 75K sitting in the second highest quintile is true for Chicago or Cook County, too.

And why is public school teachers being in the 69.7th percentile or higher at all wrong, considering the importance of what they do?

[krazen1211]

Why did I know you were going to make another jab about the teachers rather than admit that your idea of them having only a 30-hour work week was ludicrous nonsense.

I'll grant that many school districts fail miserably when it comes to hiring good teachers, but the solution to that problem is not to make the pay worse so that only bad teachers are willing to take the job.  This is not the 1950's krazen.  Educated females have far more options in employment than teaching and nursing, so there is no longer a pool of competent cheap labor for those professions.

There's no compelling evidence of course that the average chicago school teacher actually bothers to put in more than the 30 hours measured.

Nor is there compelling evidence that they actually do better at teaching than fewer, cheaper teachers did 30 years ago with lesser technology.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_069.asp

The real problem is of course this number:

Average number of pupils per class                                       
Elementary teachers, not departmentalized   29       28   27   25   25   24   23   24   21

Salaries have of course skyrocketed.


http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_078.asp


Expenditures for employee benefits have about tripled since 1990. Got to make sure those bus drivers get their lavish benefits, heh.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_180.asp

[asexual trans victimologist]

Why did I know you were going to make another jab about the teachers rather than admit that your idea of them having only a 30-hour work week was ludicrous nonsense.

I'll grant that many school districts fail miserably when it comes to hiring good teachers, but the solution to that problem is not to make the pay worse so that only bad teachers are willing to take the job.  This is not the 1950's krazen.  Educated females have far more options in employment than teaching and nursing, so there is no longer a pool of competent cheap labor for those professions.

There's no compelling evidence of course that the average chicago school teacher actually bothers to put in more than the 30 hours measured.

The fact that lesson plans, even bad ones, exist.

[krazen1211]

Why did I know you were going to make another jab about the teachers rather than admit that your idea of them having only a 30-hour work week was ludicrous nonsense.

I'll grant that many school districts fail miserably when it comes to hiring good teachers, but the solution to that problem is not to make the pay worse so that only bad teachers are willing to take the job.  This is not the 1950's krazen.  Educated females have far more options in employment than teaching and nursing, so there is no longer a pool of competent cheap labor for those professions.

There's no compelling evidence of course that the average chicago school teacher actually bothers to put in more than the 30 hours measured.

The fact that lesson plans, even bad ones, exist.

What about it? Teacher instructional time is 5 hours 15 minutes a day, and of course, they get 23 days off per year out of 180, or a massive cash windfall profit upon retirement. That adds up to a mere ~808 hours!

Of course, maybe it takes them 1200 hours to prepare lesson plans.






http://www.cps-humanresources.org/careers/benefits.htm

10 sick days and 3 personal leave days per school year (new teachers must complete a 60-school-day waiting period prior to receiving this benefit)
10 vacation days per school year

[lowtech redneck]

And why is public school teachers being in the 69.7th percentile or higher at all wrong, considering the importance of what they do?

Because tax-payers are providing their salary and municipalities are going bankrupt; the point is to maximize results per dollars spent, not validate the role of teachers.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Why did I know you were going to make another jab about the teachers rather than admit that your idea of them having only a 30-hour work week was ludicrous nonsense.

I'll grant that many school districts fail miserably when it comes to hiring good teachers, but the solution to that problem is not to make the pay worse so that only bad teachers are willing to take the job.  This is not the 1950's krazen.  Educated females have far more options in employment than teaching and nursing, so there is no longer a pool of competent cheap labor for those professions.

There's no compelling evidence of course that the average chicago school teacher actually bothers to put in more than the 30 hours measured.

The fact that lesson plans, even bad ones, exist.

What about it? Teacher instructional time is 5 hours 15 minutes a day, and of course, they get 23 days off per year out of 180, or a massive cash windfall profit upon retirement. That adds up to a mere ~808 hours!

Of course, maybe it takes them 1200 hours to prepare lesson plans.






http://www.cps-humanresources.org/careers/benefits.htm

10 sick days and 3 personal leave days per school year (new teachers must complete a 60-school-day waiting period prior to receiving this benefit)
10 vacation days per school year

It takes an immense amount of time and mental energy to prepare lessons and do other such administrative work, yes. Depending on the school and the subject, typically at least ten to twelve hours a week or thereabouts.

And why is public school teachers being in the 69.7th percentile or higher at all wrong, considering the importance of what they do?

Because tax-payers are providing their salary and municipalities are going bankrupt; the point is to maximize results per dollars spent, not validate the role of teachers.

If this was being suggested as a one-off emergency measure it would be one thing, but this is exactly the sort of instrumentalist thinking that's damaging our social institutions. Validating the role of teachers is itself a desirable result.

[lowtech redneck]

Validating the role of teachers is itself a desirable result.

That's a fair point, but not at the expense of fiscal responability....they (not to be confused with the unions) can be validated in other ways, just like the military. 

[krazen1211]

Why did I know you were going to make another jab about the teachers rather than admit that your idea of them having only a 30-hour work week was ludicrous nonsense.

I'll grant that many school districts fail miserably when it comes to hiring good teachers, but the solution to that problem is not to make the pay worse so that only bad teachers are willing to take the job.  This is not the 1950's krazen.  Educated females have far more options in employment than teaching and nursing, so there is no longer a pool of competent cheap labor for those professions.

There's no compelling evidence of course that the average chicago school teacher actually bothers to put in more than the 30 hours measured.

The fact that lesson plans, even bad ones, exist.

What about it? Teacher instructional time is 5 hours 15 minutes a day, and of course, they get 23 days off per year out of 180, or a massive cash windfall profit upon retirement. That adds up to a mere ~808 hours!

Of course, maybe it takes them 1200 hours to prepare lesson plans.






http://www.cps-humanresources.org/careers/benefits.htm

10 sick days and 3 personal leave days per school year (new teachers must complete a 60-school-day waiting period prior to receiving this benefit)
10 vacation days per school year

It takes an immense amount of time and mental energy to prepare lessons and do other such administrative work, yes. Depending on the school and the subject, typically at least ten to twelve hours a week or thereabouts.

And why is public school teachers being in the 69.7th percentile or higher at all wrong, considering the importance of what they do?

Because tax-payers are providing their salary and municipalities are going bankrupt; the point is to maximize results per dollars spent, not validate the role of teachers.

If this was being suggested as a one-off emergency measure it would be one thing, but this is exactly the sort of instrumentalist thinking that's damaging our social institutions. Validating the role of teachers is itself a desirable result.

I am certainly not surprised that the unions would say that, but of course 12 hours a week for a mere 40 weeks only totals to 480 hours.

[asexual trans victimologist]

This isn't a pattern of work that the big bad evil krazen-emasculating teachers' unions are making up to further emasculate you. It is in fact what being a schoolteacher entails. I also wonder if you understand how much mental energy is expended in this profession relative to time spent and to most other jobs. Just because you can't wrap your head around how teaching could possibly entail more than just sitting in a classroom during school hours doesn't mean that you have the right to dictate public policy to people who actually have some conception of how these things work.

[krazen1211]

This isn't a pattern of work that the big bad evil krazen-emasculating teachers' unions are making up to further emasculate you. It is in fact what being a schoolteacher entails. I also wonder if you understand how much mental energy is expended in this profession relative to time spent and to most other jobs. Just because you can't wrap your head around how teaching could possibly entail more than just sitting in a classroom during school hours doesn't mean that you have the right to dictate public policy to people who actually have some conception of how these things work.

Nobody is dictating. But just as the NJEA has used their lobbying influence in the NJ legislature to swindle the public, well, others have the right to stand up for our financial interest.

I find the fact that you have to resort to simply making up numbers highly amusing, though, especially when those numbers are contradicted by the CPS itself. Heck, even the former mayor of Chicago admitted that his teachers work 6 hour days!

[opebo]

krazen, you would do better to blame the rich,who absorb a far greater share of the worker's production than the humble teacher, and thus leave children in a state of poverty and hopelessness.