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Author Topic: Chicago teachers asking for 30% raises over next 2 years  (Read 9239 times)
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« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2012, 03:09:38 pm »
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This isn't a pattern of work that the big bad evil krazen-emasculating teachers' unions are making up to further emasculate you. It is in fact what being a schoolteacher entails. I also wonder if you understand how much mental energy is expended in this profession relative to time spent and to most other jobs. Just because you can't wrap your head around how teaching could possibly entail more than just sitting in a classroom during school hours doesn't mean that you have the right to dictate public policy to people who actually have some conception of how these things work.

Nobody is dictating. But just as the NJEA has used their lobbying influence in the NJ legislature to swindle the public, well, others have the right to stand up for our financial interest.

There are more important things in the world than money.

Quote
I find the fact that you have to resort to simply making up numbers highly amusing, though, especially when those numbers are contradicted by the CPS itself. Heck, even the former mayor of Chicago admitted that his teachers work 6 hour days!

Then in that case you're right, that school system probably isn't run particularly well (at a guess, I would say it's most likely overburdened by inadequate commitments from the city government and the people), but it really would behoove you to recognize the nature of the work and the fact that most teachers do quite a bit of off-the-clock work, which is of course very hard to measure (hence why I didn't try beyond giving as deliberately vague an over-under as possible, which you view as making things up because of your quaintly quantitative worldview). How much do you know, exactly, about the nature of the working day of a public schoolteacher?

I find it highly amusing that you're obsessed with numerating and quantifying every single aspect of human experience, from this downright unhealthy bean-counting about number of hours worked in specific contexts to your constant evocation of the untold monetary sufferings and depredations visited upon you and your fellow members of the American white suburban middle class by the evil union workers, so I guess we're even.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:14:25 pm by Nathan »Logged

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« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2012, 06:12:03 pm »

krazen, I could post some more rebutting your view, but I won't as it would be wasted effort.

I have no expectation that you will pay attention to any arguments contrary to your viewpoint even if only for the purpose of offering a counterargument.  That you continue to act as if all teachers are bad teachers, and refuse to enter into any discussion of whether the pay the Chicago teachers get and want is appropriate for good teachers is but one proof of this.

There are other posters here who I get into discussions with who while I doubt I will persuade them of my opinions are at least have the courtesy to read and respond to what I write.  You do not, preferring to act as if you were writing in some alternate universe where you hear only what you want to hear.  I will waste no more of my time on you and urge others to do the same.

Politico, CARL, and jmfcst are all conservative posters who I have gotten into disputations with who while they have a different viewpoint on certain topics than I do can at least acknowledge there are other viewpoints, even tho they consider them wrong.  krazen, I cannot recall you ever showing others that bare minimum of common courtesy and common sense.
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2012, 06:29:56 pm »
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krazen, you would do better to blame the rich,who absorb a far greater share of the worker's production than the humble teacher, and thus leave children in a state of poverty and hopelessness.

Well, the massive tax hike inflicted on the 'rich' and everyone else went directly to the chosen constituency.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-state-0223-20120223,0,3088174.story

In the next budget, virtually every penny of that $7 billion in new revenue goes to pension obligations.
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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2012, 06:52:28 pm »
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This isn't a pattern of work that the big bad evil krazen-emasculating teachers' unions are making up to further emasculate you. It is in fact what being a schoolteacher entails. I also wonder if you understand how much mental energy is expended in this profession relative to time spent and to most other jobs. Just because you can't wrap your head around how teaching could possibly entail more than just sitting in a classroom during school hours doesn't mean that you have the right to dictate public policy to people who actually have some conception of how these things work.

Nobody is dictating. But just as the NJEA has used their lobbying influence in the NJ legislature to swindle the public, well, others have the right to stand up for our financial interest.

There are more important things in the world than money.

Quote
I find the fact that you have to resort to simply making up numbers highly amusing, though, especially when those numbers are contradicted by the CPS itself. Heck, even the former mayor of Chicago admitted that his teachers work 6 hour days!

Then in that case you're right, that school system probably isn't run particularly well (at a guess, I would say it's most likely overburdened by inadequate commitments from the city government and the people), but it really would behoove you to recognize the nature of the work and the fact that most teachers do quite a bit of off-the-clock work, which is of course very hard to measure (hence why I didn't try beyond giving as deliberately vague an over-under as possible, which you view as making things up because of your quaintly quantitative worldview). How much do you know, exactly, about the nature of the working day of a public schoolteacher?


https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/249299-bls-teachers-work-patterns.html

Data from the BLS constitutes that extra 'weekend' time at somewhere between 2 and 3 hours per week, along with a mere 7 hour workday. Of course, this is national data, which is far more favorable to them than the plum schedule obtained by the CPS teachers union.


Even under these most generous figures, of course, they don't even cross the 40 hour mark, and only for 3/4 of the year!
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2012, 11:32:38 pm »
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This isn't a pattern of work that the big bad evil krazen-emasculating teachers' unions are making up to further emasculate you. It is in fact what being a schoolteacher entails. I also wonder if you understand how much mental energy is expended in this profession relative to time spent and to most other jobs. Just because you can't wrap your head around how teaching could possibly entail more than just sitting in a classroom during school hours doesn't mean that you have the right to dictate public policy to people who actually have some conception of how these things work.

Nobody is dictating. But just as the NJEA has used their lobbying influence in the NJ legislature to swindle the public, well, others have the right to stand up for our financial interest.

There are more important things in the world than money.

Quote
I find the fact that you have to resort to simply making up numbers highly amusing, though, especially when those numbers are contradicted by the CPS itself. Heck, even the former mayor of Chicago admitted that his teachers work 6 hour days!

Then in that case you're right, that school system probably isn't run particularly well (at a guess, I would say it's most likely overburdened by inadequate commitments from the city government and the people), but it really would behoove you to recognize the nature of the work and the fact that most teachers do quite a bit of off-the-clock work, which is of course very hard to measure (hence why I didn't try beyond giving as deliberately vague an over-under as possible, which you view as making things up because of your quaintly quantitative worldview). How much do you know, exactly, about the nature of the working day of a public schoolteacher?


https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/249299-bls-teachers-work-patterns.html

Data from the BLS constitutes that extra 'weekend' time at somewhere between 2 and 3 hours per week, along with a mere 7 hour workday. Of course, this is national data, which is far more favorable to them than the plum schedule obtained by the CPS teachers union.


Even under these most generous figures, of course, they don't even cross the 40 hour mark, and only for 3/4 of the year!

I note you still don't discuss the nature of your quantificatory obsession and in particular note your unwillingness to even attempt to refute any part of my argument other than that which you feel you can refute using little statistics. You've entirely failed to address the nature of the work, the way the time is spread through a teacher's life (a teacher's workday for one thing begins comparatively very early), and the questions about the nature of the work and the sort of work that we should be valuing and the kinds of work that we should be encouraging. You don't care about that, presumably because it cannot be easily quantified and used to score cheap points to advance your petit bourgeoisie reactionary agitprop class rhetoric.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 11:37:52 pm by Nathan »Logged

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« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2012, 07:14:06 pm »
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krazen, you would do better to blame the rich,who absorb a far greater share of the worker's production than the humble teacher, and thus leave children in a state of poverty and hopelessness.

Well, the massive tax hike inflicted on the 'rich' and everyone else went directly to the chosen constituency.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-state-0223-20120223,0,3088174.story

In the next budget, virtually every penny of that $7 billion in new revenue goes to pension obligations.

That's not exactly true. Increases in Medicaid costs are rising rapidly and are projected to make the bulk of the budget shortfall. The majority of the pension cost increase is not from the regular payment into the pension system, but is due to payments on the back-loaded loans IL took so they could avoid paying past unfunded pension liability. IL constitutional law prevents the legislature from collecting past liability from the employees, so options are limited.

The irony in citing the link above is that Chicago is the only school system in IL where the state does not pick up the pension cost (except for a small transfer payment). The Gov has suggested that local schools throughout the state also pick up the employer cost as does Chicago. Of course that effectively acts to transfer money from the suburbs to Chicago within the picture of the state budget.
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« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2012, 02:36:27 pm »
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krazen, you would do better to blame the rich,who absorb a far greater share of the worker's production than the humble teacher, and thus leave children in a state of poverty and hopelessness.

Well, the massive tax hike inflicted on the 'rich' and everyone else went directly to the chosen constituency.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-state-0223-20120223,0,3088174.story

In the next budget, virtually every penny of that $7 billion in new revenue goes to pension obligations.

Well, that's good, but you're missing the point that the entirety of the incomes of the rich are theft in the first place.
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« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2012, 10:00:22 am »
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Well, here comes the strike.


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/11/12166509-chicago-teachers-vote-for-strike-in-battle-over-pay-longer-school-days





Of course, Chicago has only about 403,000 students, a shrinking population and tax base, and a massive 25,000 teaching force.

The next battleground is brewing.
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« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2012, 10:17:02 am »
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Well, here comes the strike.


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/11/12166509-chicago-teachers-vote-for-strike-in-battle-over-pay-longer-school-days





Of course, Chicago has only about 403,000 students, a shrinking population and tax base, and a massive 25,000 teaching force.

The next battleground is brewing.

Earlier the teachers asked for mediation and the report comes out in July. To guard against a mediation report that convinces some teachers to accept it without more hard negotiation the union got a strike authorization vote so that they can use that threat at the bargaining table. The bottom line is that mayor Emanuel wants a significantly longer school day (Chicago has one of the shortest in the US) without much in additional wages. His position is generally popular, but this is his first contract negotiation with the Chicago teachers so the union wants to set a standard for the future.
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« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2012, 10:24:26 am »
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I did some Googling and every number I found was lower than $75k, which your source says is from 2008. This 2011 article, for example, says the number is 69k. Perhaps the source you cited is adding other forms of compensation to the salary. Generous either way, though.

And 30% is of course ridiculous, but that's how bargaining works.

No, that's not how bargaining works. "Bargaining" is suppose to be done in good faith. A good faith position would involve first asking for the upper limit of what is in probable range of outcomes, and negotiating from there. Asking for a fantastic number is tantamount to announcing your intention to strike.
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« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2012, 10:39:32 am »
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krazen, you would do better to blame the rich,who absorb a far greater share of the worker's production than the humble teacher, and thus leave children in a state of poverty and hopelessness.

Teacher unions that try to prevent the termination of teachers whom can't or won't effectively teach children adds to hopelessness of the unfortunate students whom have to study in those teacher's classes.
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« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2012, 10:45:39 am »
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Well, here comes the strike.


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/11/12166509-chicago-teachers-vote-for-strike-in-battle-over-pay-longer-school-days





Of course, Chicago has only about 403,000 students, a shrinking population and tax base, and a massive 25,000 teaching force.

The next battleground is brewing.

Earlier the teachers asked for mediation and the report comes out in July. To guard against a mediation report that convinces some teachers to accept it without more hard negotiation the union got a strike authorization vote so that they can use that threat at the bargaining table.


So, threatening to strike was their initial bargaining position.

Quote
The bottom line is that mayor Emanuel wants a significantly longer school day (Chicago has one of the shortest in the US) without much in additional wages. His position is generally popular, but this is his first contract negotiation with the Chicago teachers so the union wants to set a standard for the future.

The longer workday is in all probablity a one-time demand.
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« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2012, 10:59:28 am »
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I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

The second quintile of 60K to 100K is for family income, so two teachers both earning 75K are in the top quintile nationally.

That aside, based on individual salaries in Chicago, what quintile are you claiming Chicago teachers are in, and what is the minimum salary necessary to be "middle-class" in Chicago?
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« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2012, 11:48:49 am »
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The reason why the cost of living in Chicago is so much higher than in Futtbuck, PA, is because it's considered more desirable to live in Chicago than in Futtbuck.  People will willingly pay more for the "same thing" to live in Chicago rather than in Futtbuck because the resources and opportunities available in a thriving major city dwarf those in depressed rural areas.  $75k will therefore provide you with just about the same standard of living elsewhere - an austere lifestyle where people want to live and a lavish one where people want to leave, which have been judged by the collective body of people to be equivalent.

75% of Americans would love to be making $75k in Chicago, as would quite a few teachers (who are now being graduated from college at three times the rate of new positions opening up, which among normal people would mean salaries in the industry would drop instead of astronomically increasing at the expense of newly-qualified individuals entering the industry, and the taxpayer).

Of course, there's also nothing preventing teachers from (horror upon horrors) living in one of the cheaper suburbs and commuting, like normal people.  If they do insist on living in the city it might in fact be a win-win to reduce their salaries enough that they have to live among the scary brown/black people.  It would certainly be quite the motivator to improve their students' performance, no?

As an aside, Chicago has objectively terrible teachers.  As Stephen Leavitt pointed out in his bestselling book of pop-statistics, Freakonomics, a statistical analysis of standardized test results revealed widespread cheating by teachers - patterns of answers filled out the same way on every test sheet in the class.  Not only that, but many of the answers in those patterns were wrong, unmasking them as not only dishonest and incompetent but also idiots.
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« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2012, 12:09:44 pm »
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I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

The second quintile of 60K to 100K is for family income, so two teachers both earning 75K are in the top quintile nationally.

That aside, based on individual salaries in Chicago, what quintile are you claiming Chicago teachers are in, and what is the minimum salary necessary to be "middle-class" in Chicago?

1 teacher making $75k of course already makes twice the cities' average salary.
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« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2012, 02:27:07 pm »
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In other news:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/business/executive-pay-still-climbing-despite-a-shareholder-din.html?pagewanted=all

Quote
Median pay of the nation’s 200 top-paid C.E.O.’s was $14.5 million, according to a study conducted for The New York Times by Equilar, a compensation data firm based in Redwood City, Calif. The median pay raise among those C.E.O.’s was 5 percent.

But let's continue to demonize the five-figure salary teachers!
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« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2012, 03:59:20 pm »
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I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

The second quintile of 60K to 100K is for family income, so two teachers both earning 75K are in the top quintile nationally.

That aside, based on individual salaries in Chicago, what quintile are you claiming Chicago teachers are in, and what is the minimum salary necessary to be "middle-class" in Chicago?

1 teacher making $75k of course already makes twice the cities' average salary.


As cited at

http://www.illinoispolicy.org/blog/blog.asp?ArticleSource=4685

average family income in Chicago is $46,877.

I don't see the logic in claiming that a single worker making 50% more than the average family income of a city doesn't already live at a middle-class level.
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« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2012, 04:21:02 pm »
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Of course teachers are overpaid. I spend all day around them and can assure you they hardly deserve their salaries. I educate students who threaten to beat me up and have to deal with countless state and federal SPED mandates and I can assure you that I am overpaid.

The numbers clearly indicate so. $75k + lavish pension and benefits for a 30 hour week!

If you think it's a 30 hour week, you're delusional. They grade papers at home in the evenings. They have to be at school at least an hour beforehand to get things ready and often have to stay after school to help students or monitor carpool and buses or look after some kid whose parent is late getting them.
That "lavish" pension you speak of requires you be vested in order to receive it. You usually have to be there at least 10 years before you're fully vested. And if you decide you want to move and teach in another state, poof! you have to start all over from square one with your new state/district's retirement plan.
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« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2012, 04:24:16 pm »
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I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

The second quintile of 60K to 100K is for family income, so two teachers both earning 75K are in the top quintile nationally.

That aside, based on individual salaries in Chicago, what quintile are you claiming Chicago teachers are in, and what is the minimum salary necessary to be "middle-class" in Chicago?

1 teacher making $75k of course already makes twice the cities' average salary.


As cited at

http://www.illinoispolicy.org/blog/blog.asp?ArticleSource=4685

average family income in Chicago is $46,877.

I don't see the logic in claiming that a single worker making 50% more than the average family income of a city doesn't already live at a middle-class level.


Who decided that educators aren't allowed to earn an "above-average" salary? Different professions get paid more than others. 70% of Americans don't have a college degree, which is heavily tied to earnings. All teachers have at least a bachelor's degree, so wouldn't it make sense that someone with an above-average education is making an above-average income?
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"Well, religious beliefs aren't reasonable. I mean, religious beliefs are categorical. You know, it's God tells you. It's not a matter of being reasonable. God be reasonable? He's supposed to have a full beard."
—Hon. Antonin Scalia, Holt v. Hobbs (2014)

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« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2012, 04:27:15 pm »
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krazen, you would do better to blame the rich,who absorb a far greater share of the worker's production than the humble teacher, and thus leave children in a state of poverty and hopelessness.

Teacher unions that try to prevent the termination of teachers whom can't or won't effectively teach children adds to hopelessness of the unfortunate students whom have to study in those teacher's classes.

Not at all, BSB, the hopelessness of those students is entirely gained from their oppression at the hands of the rich - they are poors, and their lives are utterly without hope, and no poor overworked public servant, teacher or other, will ever change that as long as the rich are allowed to continue their predations.

As cited at

http://www.illinoispolicy.org/blog/blog.asp?ArticleSource=4685

average family income in Chicago is $46,877.

Those people are about 40% unemployed, 20% cleaning ladies, and the rest mostly garbagemen and sandwichmakers - only a tiny elite in places like Chicago have proper incomes.  The new America is one of appallingly low incomes - a reality caused by you right-wingers, not by the poor downtrodden public servant.
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« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2012, 09:00:00 pm »
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I'm completely befuddled as to what krazen's on about here.  krazen, 75,000 is a middle class salary. 

75K sits in the second highest quintile that goes from about 60 to 100K according the 2010 data from the Census.

Not in chicago my friend.

 It always seems like these horrors of unionized teacher stories come from a metro area like nyc or chi twon where thecost of living is MUCH higher than normal. It serves to distort the middle-class standard of living such teacher's earn and likewise project it as a false 'coming soon to your community' warning to the rest of middle america.

Effecive ploy. Misleading, but effective.

The second quintile of 60K to 100K is for family income, so two teachers both earning 75K are in the top quintile nationally.

That aside, based on individual salaries in Chicago, what quintile are you claiming Chicago teachers are in, and what is the minimum salary necessary to be "middle-class" in Chicago?

1 teacher making $75k of course already makes twice the cities' average salary.


As cited at

http://www.illinoispolicy.org/blog/blog.asp?ArticleSource=4685

average family income in Chicago is $46,877.

I don't see the logic in claiming that a single worker making 50% more than the average family income of a city doesn't already live at a middle-class level.


Who decided that educators aren't allowed to earn an "above-average" salary?

I am noting that claims that 75K doesn't constitute a middle-class income in Chicago are bogus.
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« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2012, 08:16:57 pm »

Krazen, as a kid did something...er..."happen" to you involving a teacher?
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« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2012, 04:36:20 pm »
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Krazen, as a kid did something...er..."happen" to you involving a teacher?

Actually, something more recently. These union thugs who have broken the budget managed to bully the Democratic party into preserving LIFO!

It's amazing how legislation needs support from a teachers union in order to be passed. Wisconsin did not tolerate such nonsense.



http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/seniority_not_challenged_in_la.html
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/gov_chris_christie_may_not_sig.html


"What happens, of course, as a result is that a lot of the younger and most enthusiastic teachers automatically get taken out," Christie told the audience of nearly 750. "Whether I sign it or I veto it, the bottom line is we have to get back to considering ‘last in, first out.’"

Sen. Teresa Ruiz (D-Essex), the sponsor, left seniority rights unaltered to secure support from the state’s largest teachers union, the New Jersey Education Association, which called the issue a "line in the sand" Tuesday.




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BritishDixie
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« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2012, 08:45:13 am »
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This kind of thing is normal in Britain.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2012, 04:07:28 pm »
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http://www.npr.org/2012/09/09/160821554/chicago-teachers-may-strike-teach-political-lesson



Doomsday is coming. It is interesting to see who will win this war for the treasury.



"Parents like Gutierrez and others, who support the teachers union, are up against a school district and a mayor who have a very different idea about what the public schools should look like."


Stockholm syndrome. Lower class sizes? Student:teacher ratios are a lavish and expensive 16:1!
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