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Author Topic: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands  (Read 1246 times)
ℒief
Lief
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« on: February 19, 2012, 04:38:07 pm »
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yn-eejMcmuA
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Torie
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 04:46:39 pm »
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The Reader's Digest version is that half of the euthanized folks in Holland are euthanized involuntarily (5% of all Dutch deaths are due to involuntarily euthanasia), so the elderly Dutch population "don't go to a Dutch hospital," but rather go to one outside the country, because they fear a Dutch hospital will deliberately kill them. It is all part of the culture of death sweeping the medical profession precipitated by abortion, which was the nose in the tent, and Obama wants the US to travel down the same road as The Netherlands.

Do any of our European friends know the facts on this one? This puppy needs a fact checker ASAP!

Oh, and does Rick know what euthanasia actually means?  What it does not mean is the withholding of hideously expensive treatment with limited prospects of efficacy for someone 95 years old as it were Rick. And how would the US ever be able to afford that anyway, if the government share of the GDP is to be slashed down from 23% to 18% as you advocate?  Just asking Rick.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 04:55:31 pm by Torie »Logged

oakvale
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 04:48:52 pm »
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Guys, I'm starting to think that Santorum may be some kind of religious extremist! *gasp*
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 04:54:16 pm »
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The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html
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argentarius
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 04:57:31 pm »
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If there was any truth to this Ireland's leading party wouldn't have talked about modelling our health system on the dutch system in last year's general election.
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Torie
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 04:57:42 pm »
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The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html

Per the study, the non consensual euthanasia cases (900 total) were apparently because the patients were demented and non compis mentis.
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 05:01:26 pm »
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What Santorum is claiming is not true, as that would mean there would be 6560 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year in the Netherlands  (so 13120 cases in total), and there are 2000 to 3500 cases reported by doctors each year in total.
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oakvale
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 05:08:46 pm »
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If there was any truth to this Ireland's leading party wouldn't have talked about modelling our health system on the dutch system in last year's general election.

You'd be surprised if Enda wanted to involuntarily euthanize some of the population? Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 05:11:46 pm »
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What Santorum is claiming is not true, as that would mean there would be 6560 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year in the Netherlands  (so 13120 cases in total), and there are 2000 to 3500 cases reported by doctors each year in total.

Uh, there are "just" 2000 to 3500 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year?

...
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 05:12:09 pm »
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The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html

Per the study, the non consensual euthanasia cases (900 total) were apparently because the patients were demented and non compis mentis.

I didn't even read the study.  I posted it more to just show that anything I could find that was in some way objective was really old.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 05:12:42 pm »
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There's some core of truth to this idiowy in that I believe it's indeed quite common for Dutch people living near the border to seek medical help abroad, as there aren't any lengthy waiting lists in Belgium or Germany(?) .
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 05:14:03 pm »
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Death panels 2.0? Can this nonsense please go way?
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Torie
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 05:14:14 pm »
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The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html

Per the study, the non consensual euthanasia cases (900 total) were apparently because the patients were demented and non compis mentis.

I didn't even read the study.  I posted it more to just show that anything I could find that was in some way objective was really old.

Well I read it. Lawyers are used to reading texts.  Thanks for looking for something for me to read. Smiley
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Torie
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 05:18:10 pm »
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There's some core of truth to this idiowy in that I believe it's indeed quite common for Dutch people living near the border to seek medical help abroad, as there aren't any lengthy waiting lists in Belgium or Germany(?) .

Ah yes. A distaste for delay as opposed to fear of being offed. Rick might have been better off chatting about rationing through wait times. Just a thought. But then, that is not the kind of thing that gets Rick animated, now does it? No, it's all about ACE - Abortion, Contraception and Euthanasia.
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2012, 05:20:38 pm »
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Fact check, from a Dutch person, courtesy of reddit:

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There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily

False, no such bracelets exist, and every euthanasia case must start with a request from the patient. Neither the family nor the doctor can initiate the procedure, which has very clear rules:

    the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement

    the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)

    the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options

    there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above

    the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, in which case the doctor must be present

    the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents)

More on the wiki.

10% of all deaths are from euthanasia

False. In 2010, 136058 people died in the Netherlands, of which 3136 through (reported) euthanasia. That is 2,3%. Of course not every case will be reported, but I assume most of them will, because when a doctor does not follow the guidelines that have been set in Dutch law for euthanasia (including reporting it to a review committee), it is still illegal, so that would be a huge risk to take for the doctor.

Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital

While it is true that a growing number of people go to Belgian and German hospitals for non-urgent treatments, this is because of the shortage in healthcare professionals in the Netherlands, because of the population ageing, resulting in waiting lists in Dutch hospitals. This is still a fairly small amount, around 2% of operations on Dutch patients is done in foreign hospitals. But it certainly has nothing to do with 'budget purposes'. The Netherlands is in the top20 for both life expectancy and on the WHO ranking of healthcare systems, well above the US, which I assume would be harder if we were just killing old people left and right.

Basically everything Santorum said, with the exception of some Dutch people going abroad to get medical care (but not because they're afraid of euthanasia), is a total lie.
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2012, 05:21:55 pm »
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I think my desire to see Mitt Romney humiliated has blinded me to how awful Santorum is. Oh well, it's not like he's going to be President.
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2012, 05:26:41 pm »
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To add to Lief's point:

Life expectancy in "culture of death" Netherlands: 79.8
Life expectancy in "culture of life" USA: 78.3
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 05:29:10 pm »
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Santorum dislikes The Netherlands...hmmm...I wonder what Phil's take would be...
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2012, 05:32:45 pm »
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Fact check, from a Dutch person, courtesy of reddit:

Quote
There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily

False, no such bracelets exist, and every euthanasia case must start with a request from the patient. Neither the family nor the doctor can initiate the procedure, which has very clear rules:

    the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement

    the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)

    the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options

    there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above

    the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, in which case the doctor must be present

    the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents)

More on the wiki.

10% of all deaths are from euthanasia

False. In 2010, 136058 people died in the Netherlands, of which 3136 through (reported) euthanasia. That is 2,3%. Of course not every case will be reported, but I assume most of them will, because when a doctor does not follow the guidelines that have been set in Dutch law for euthanasia (including reporting it to a review committee), it is still illegal, so that would be a huge risk to take for the doctor.

Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital

While it is true that a growing number of people go to Belgian and German hospitals for non-urgent treatments, this is because of the shortage in healthcare professionals in the Netherlands, because of the population ageing, resulting in waiting lists in Dutch hospitals. This is still a fairly small amount, around 2% of operations on Dutch patients is done in foreign hospitals. But it certainly has nothing to do with 'budget purposes'. The Netherlands is in the top20 for both life expectancy and on the WHO ranking of healthcare systems, well above the US, which I assume would be harder if we were just killing old people left and right.

Basically everything Santorum said, with the exception of some Dutch people going abroad to get medical care (but not because they're afraid of euthanasia), is a total lie.

Is there some sort of credibility to back up his claims, or is it just a random dude on reddit (not that I don't believe what he said... just curious).
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2012, 05:35:39 pm »
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Well, it was posted by a Dutch person in a section of the site specifically focusing on the Netherlands and upvoted by a bunch of other Dutch people. Plus he sources his claims in the links provided.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2012, 05:36:30 pm »
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Well, it was posted by a Dutch person

This should tell you everything about the credibility, Inks.
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Torie
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2012, 05:38:35 pm »
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Well, it was posted by a Dutch person

This should tell you everything about the credibility, Inks.

Quote
Plus he sources his claims in the links provided.

Did you read the sources Phil, which sources are provided in the links of the text Link copied and pasted?  You might do that before dismissing what some foreign guy from a country you dislike has posted.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 05:41:15 pm by Torie »Logged

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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2012, 05:39:07 pm »
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From Wikipedia:

"In 2010 there were 3136 cases reported of a physician assisting the death of a patient. Split out it were 2910 cases of "end of life on request", 182 cases of assisted suicide and in 44 cases it was a combination. The evaluation commissions decided that in 9 cases the procedures were not according to protocol and referred the cases to the Public Prosecution Service and the Health Care Inspectorate.[5] It was the fifth year in a row that the number of reported cases was rising. The reason for this rise is not clear.[6]"
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This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

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Likely Voter
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2012, 05:49:31 pm »
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As someone who used to live in Europe, I am getting sick of the GOP portraying Europe as some kind of evil horrible place. Just last week Rick was attacking Obama for his close ties to France and the French president. And in the debates how many times have we heard about the evils of "European socialism".

Have any of these people ever been to Europe?
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2012, 05:52:19 pm »
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Well, it was posted by a Dutch person in a section of the site specifically focusing on the Netherlands and upvoted by a bunch of other Dutch people. Plus he sources his claims in the links provided.

Ahh, ok.  I didn't see the hyperlinks in your text (which makes me less than happy, since I usually have really good vision).
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