Santorum says the 45,000,000 Protestants in America are not Christians

[IDS Speaker Ben Kenobi]

You say their obedience is not through the Spirit but rather through their nature, but according to scripture:

I don't say that, St. Paul says this, and explicitly refers to their nature as opposed to the Spirit. This is important, because St. Paul is talking about gentiles who have had no contact with Christ, let alone the Holy Spirit. You are correct that no one can obey perfectly - but if a gentile says things like - you shouldn't sleep with people until you are married - through his conscience only, he is showing evidence of the law written on his heart even if he doesn't obey perfectly.

1)   Is human nature capable of being in agreement with, or obedient to, God’s law?  No. (Rom ch 7 & 8 )

How is it possible to judge without having prior knowledge of the Law? That's what Paul gets into in Romans 3. All have sinned and fallen short of the Law, and all have the Law of God written on their hearts. This is why no one is exempt. They know they are doing wrong, and thus, can be judged on the law as they understand it, notwithstanding the limitations of understanding God through one's conscience as opposed to Scripture.

Knowledge of the Law through the Spirit is a different thing altogether. This is why when people come into contact with Christ in the Gospels, that they respond to Him as the truth - because they already have some understanding of the Law through their conscience.

2)   How do people get the requirements of the law written on their hearts? By receiving the Holy Spirit. (Jer 31:33; 2Cor 3:2-3; Heb 8:10; Heb 10:16)

2 Cor 3 - refers to the tangible results of Paul's ministry, and not to the Law being written on people's hearts prior to knowing Christ.

Hebrews 8:10, and 10:16 refer to the covenant God made with the Jews - not the Gentiles, which Paul explicitly makes references to in Romans 2 - by referring to Jews apart from Gentiles as having knowledge of the Law through Moses.

My interpretation of Rom 2:14-15: What Paul is alluding to is that when Gentiles, who haven’t heard the law, receive the Holy Spirit through belief in Christ, the Holy Spirit will guide them to live according to the way of love, which is the fulfillment of the law.

Which is why he explicitly refers to their obedience to the law through their nature and their conscience? He's talking about people who lack direct knowledge of God, ie, Gentiles, as opposed to the knowledge that the Jews themselves possess. He is shaming the Jews here - saying that the Gentiles obey God's laws despite not having the Law, and the Jews reject God despite having the Law. What was happening is that the Jews were saying that the Gentiles simply couldn't be Christians since God never made a covenant with them. 

In other words, when you are filled by the Holy Spirit, loving others as yourself becomes second nature, and you fulfill God’s law even if you’ve never had Moses read to you…and I have dozens upon dozens of scriptural witnesses to back that up.

Uh, once you become Christian, you should have knowledge of the Mosaic Law through scripture.

Your interpretation of Rom 2:14-15: “[human nature can be obedient to God’s law]”, is directly contradicted by many NT scriptures

Paul explicitly refers to this point when he says, that All have sinned and that no one is exempt because all have the Laws of God written on their hearts in Romans 3.

which is why you have no 2nd or 3rd scriptural witness to support your interpretation.

If you don't understand Paul in Romans 2 - then the rest of his argument in Romans 3 isn't going to make sense. None of your references actually refer to the point you are making, which is pretty much par for the course.

Please re-read Romans again. Paul is making the argument that everyone, whether they are with the Spirit or not - has the Law of God written on their heart. This is why they can be judged by God, in accordance to their knowledge of God, and whether they were obedient to God.

This is also why we need Christ - because without him we cannot be obedient to Him. But there's a difference between being obedient to him and showing that you know the Law through your conscience. Simply refraining from killing people is sufficient evidence.

“Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses”

All of your references refer to Church discipline when a brother has sinned, and not to divine revelation. It is not enough to have one witness in this instance.

Are you saying that Paul's testimony that he received the Word of God to preach to the Gentiles is not reliable because the only one who records this is Luke in Acts, based on what Paul told him?

[asexual trans victimologist]

somewhat radical Anglo-Catholic and a bunch of non-theists.

I'm honored you consider me a Conservative Catholic, as opposed to an Anglo-Catholic. That is my background - but I converted before the establishment of the Ordinariate, and I'm just a regular Latin Rite Catholic.

Oh, you misunderstand me, I say 'conservative Catholic' as in 'Catholic who is theologically and politically conservative'. When I say 'Anglo-Catholic' it refers to the faction of Anglicanism by that name, which is my theological home (not referring to Anglicans who have been switching over to the Catholic Church in recent decades). I wasn't saying it 'as opposed to' you, it's just what my own background is.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Ben Kenobi,

You seriously need to do a bible study on:

1)   The New Covenant (Jer 31:33, entire book of Hebrews, Galatians, etc) and the covenant Jesus Christ institution upon his death…because they are one and the very same.
2)   God writing his laws of people’s hearts, and God writing the laws of people’s hearts through New Covenant that Jesus implemented…because they are one and the same.
3)   The difference between the Law of Moses being written on stone tablets, and Christ’s Law being written on the hearts of believers.

Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant spoken about in Jer31:33, just as Moses was the mediator of the covenant given at Mt Sinai (a.k.a. Law of Moses).  And through this New Covenant, those that believe in Jesus Christ have the requirements of God’s law written on their hearts, meaning the requirements of God have been internalized by the guiding presence of the Holy Spirit.

This is all extremely basic Christianity 101 type of stuff…and I’m really not in the mood to have my mind blown with the scary thought that some Christians (or some Christian denominations) don’t agree.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Eh, I'm similarly disturbed by the fact that there are Christian denominations that don't have some equivalent to the points of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral, so.

[IDS Speaker Ben Kenobi]

Oh, you misunderstand me, I say 'conservative Catholic' as in 'Catholic who is theologically and politically conservative'. When I say 'Anglo-Catholic' it refers to the faction of Anglicanism by that name, which is my theological home (not referring to Anglicans who have been switching over to the Catholic Church in recent decades). I wasn't saying it 'as opposed to' you, it's just what my own background is.

No, but I'm honored that you make this distinction, even if you didn't intend to make it. It means a lot to me.

[IDS Speaker Ben Kenobi]

1)   The New Covenant (Jer 31:33, entire book of Hebrews, Galatians, etc) and the covenant Jesus Christ institution upon his death…because they are one and the very same.

As opposed to the Old Covenant between the Jews and YHWH.

I'm aware of the new covenant - and that God promises that we will have eternal life with him - if we follow and obey. All I am saying is that God reads hearts and minds and that is how he determines whether someone will or will not be saved. Sola Gratia - salvation by the Grace of God through Faith in Christ.

If you're arguing for Sola Fidae - there are significant problems with this argument. Not the least of which is that the doctrine is ascriptural. You don't need the bible in order to be saved - one can be saved without even reading a jot.

2)   God writing his laws of people’s hearts, and God writing the laws of people’s hearts through New Covenant that Jesus implemented…because they are one and the same.

Then why does Paul refer to the nature of the Gentiles in obedience to the Law written on their hearts as opposed to the obedience of the Jews to the Laws of Moses? One is codified, one is conscientious. God writes his laws on people's hearts prior to the new covenant. He did so at creation and it has been passed on to all of us.

That is the whole point of Romans - go back and read the book. I suppose you also reject Paul when he says that Gentiles are ingrafted branches - and that the Jews are still God's chosen people.

3)   The difference between the Law of Moses being written on stone tablets, and Christ’s Law being written on the hearts of believers.

This is the crux of the issue. You don't really believe Christ when he states that 'not a stroke of the pen' has been removed from the Old Covenant. Jesus talks about how he is the fulfillment of the promises to the Jews - and that through the grace of God - salvation has been extended from the Jews to the Gentiles, as Paul speaks of later.

Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant spoken about in Jer31:33

The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
   “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
   and with the people of Judah.

He specifically refers to the Jews, not the Gentiles. You can't get there from here, jmcfast.

just as Moses was the mediator of the covenant given at Mt Sinai (a.k.a. Law of Moses).

Says nothing there about Jesus being the mediator... all Jeremiah says is that God is going to make a New Covenant with his people Israel to replace the one that they broke.

If you're going to make the mediator argument - at least refer to Hebrews 8:6 which is the actual source, not Jeremiah which says nothing of a mediator.

Then onto Hebrews 9:11 which says this:

"But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all "by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption."

The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
 
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

This is all extremely basic Christianity 101 type of stuff…and I’m really not in the mood to have my mind blown with the scary thought that some Christians (or some Christian denominations) don’t agree.

You assume far too much. It's like you're reading off a script.

Here's a clue. Drop the script. You'll be far more effective.

Now, knowing what Hebrews 9:11-15 says about the blood of Christ - let's go back to the Gospels.  John 6:53-9

"Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.  Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Ben, I have created a thread on the Relgion Board of us to continue this discussion:

http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=149590.0

[LINCOLN REPUBLICAN]

Although the original discussion about Santorum saying that 45,000,000 American Protestants are not Christians has gone way off topic, I am pleased to see that my thread has generated  8 pages of discussion.