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jmfcst
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« on: February 24, 2012, 12:48:43 pm »
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God writes his laws on people's hearts prior to the new covenant. He did so at creation and it has been passed on to all of us.

[This conversation is branching out too quickly, so I would like you to help me pull it back to singular points:]

From the above comment, you’re claiming that everyone has God's laws written on their hearts...and that that has been the case since creation.

But, if everyone born since creation has had God’s laws written on their hearts, then what was the need for a future new covenant to come in order to write the laws on people’s hearts?:

Quote
Jer ch 31
 31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
   “when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel
   and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
   I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
   to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
   though I was a husband to them,”
            declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
   after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
   and write it on their hearts.

I will be their God,
   and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
   or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
   from the least of them to the greatest,”
            declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
   and will remember their sins no more.”
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 12:58:17 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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Coming for to carry me home.

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IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 07:41:33 am »
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But, if everyone born since creation has had God’s laws written on their hearts, then what was the need for a future new covenant to come in order to write the laws on people’s hearts?

Couple things.

One, everyone has had a conscience since creation. God gave us the choice to follow him and his laws long before the Old covenant rolled around.

Like with Moses, this is why Jesus comes out and says - "it was not like this in the beginning", so God, rather then give them the entirety, gave them the Old Covenant and asked the Jews to stick to it. Since the first time, at the time of Noah had ended in a disaster, God decided to try something different.

We can go back to the comment about new wine and old wineskins. You need a new Covenant, after Christ's death, because the Old Covenant no longer was -enough- if that makes any sense. It was never intended to be the be all and end all.

You seemed tripped up on this. "laws written on the heart" is just the same way of saying that we have a conscience, and that our conscience knows him, even if it is very imperfectly. When we come to know God - we have a much better understanding.
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 11:58:04 am »
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Point being, that if God had written his laws on the heart of everyone from the beginning, then the new covenant in Jer 31:33 promising that very thing is pointless…

Basically, out of the 8 passages in the bible that refer to God’s laws being written on the heart (Pro 3:3;Pro 7:3;Jer 31:33; Rom 2:15; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16)…you’re claiming Rom 2:15 is NOT to be interpreted in the context of the other 7 references.

Also, last week you were claiming that the new covenant prophesied in Jer 31:33 is NOT the same new covenant that Jesus instituted upon his death…on that point, you are in disagreement with 99% of Christianity, and you are even in disagreement on that point with the Roman Catholic Church.  

And your claim that Gentiles can’t be included in that covenant made between God and Israel is contradicted by your own previous point that the Gentile believers have been grafted in.

--

In summary, the points of my position are these:

1)   Jesus’ new covenant spoken of in the NT, and the OT prophesy of a future new covenant mentioned in Jer 31:33, are one and the same.  (and 99% of Christianity is in agreement with me on this point)
2)   The Gentiles believers have been grafted into spiritual Israel and therefore are recipients of the new covenant mentioned in Jer 31:33.
3)   Rom 2:15 is to be interpreted in the context of the other 7 verses pertaining to God writing his laws on the hearts of his people (Pro 3:3;Pro 7:3;Jer 31:33; Rom 2:15; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16).

Granted, the theologians you cited agree with me on points 1 & 2, yet disagreement with me on point 3…but I see NO REASON to make Rom 2:15 mean something different than the context of the other 7 verses.  These “theologians” are simply grasping at straws into order to attempt to make Rom 2:15 fit their viewpoint that non-Christians can be saved. But my approach is not to make Rom 2:15 fit my doctrine, rather I want to allow Rom 2:15 to be interpreted by the rest of scripture, by allowing scripture to interpret scripture:

1Cor 2:13 “ These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual

If you compare Rom 2:15 with the other 7 passages (Pro 3:3;Pro 7:3;Jer 31:33; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16), there’s NO WAY to make it mean anything other than God writing the laws of the hearts of Gentile believers in Christ as a result of the new covenant.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 12:19:02 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

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IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 12:57:03 pm »
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Apologies for not seeing your reply:

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Point being, that if God had written his laws on the heart of everyone from the beginning, then the new covenant in Jer 31:33 promising that very thing is pointless

Not so. Just because one's conscience has a limited understanding of God is not the same as saying that one has the same connection with God as one has in the Holy Spirit. Far from it.

I'm talking about the concept of the Tao- of a universal law of morals which everyone has some knowledge of, even if their understanding is faulty or flawed. I'm talking do not cheat, do not lie, do not steal, do not kill, much of what was in the Ten Commandments.

There is significant overlap - but the New Covenant goes further even though it says much less - love the Lord your God, and love your neighbour as yourself. Are you telling me that even those who do not know God - that they do not have an understanding of the Golden Rule? I can't say that - I had that before I became a Christian. When you come to Christ - what the New Covenant gives you is God's side of things through the Holy Spirit. You are better able to understand several questions - "who is my neighbor", and "if a neighbor sins against you," etc - these are all questions that come up in the Gospel.

Quote
Basically, out of the 8 passages in the bible that refer to God’s laws being written on the heart (Pro 3:3;Pro 7:3;Jer 31:33; Rom 2:15; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16)…you’re claiming Rom 2:15 is NOT to be interpreted in the context of the other 7 references.

No sir. I'm saying that the passages that you are citing do not say what you are saying they say. I am saying that they confirm what I am saying about Romans 2:15.

Proverbs 3:3

"Let love and faithfulness never leave you, bind them around your neck, write them on the table of your heart"

Referring to what the Jews would do with the Old Testament - they would write the words down and put them close to their heart to show the significance to the Law that is already written on their hearts - before the new testament.

Proverbs 7:3, same thing. I've already told you about the other ones and why they are not referring to the New Testament, but to the law already written on their hearts.

Quote
Also, last week you were claiming that the new covenant prophesied in Jer 31:33 is NOT the same new covenant

I did not say that. I said that Jeremiah is speaking to the Jews and what the New Covenant will mean to them. Jeremiah does not refer to the Gentiles. He does not prophesy that the Gentiles will be included into salvation, that God will be making a plan for the Gentiles alongside the Jews. He does not say this.

Instead, what he actually says, from the NIV:

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
   after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
   and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
   and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
   or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
   from the least of them to the greatest,”
            declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
   and will remember their sins no more.”

He will take the Law that has already been written on their hearts and write it again - so that this time they will keep the Law.

Quote
that Jesus instituted upon his death…on that point, you are in disagreement with 99% of Christianity, and you are even in disagreement on that point with the Roman Catholic Church.

I would be if I had said this - but that is not what I said. I said that Jeremiah does not refer to the Gentiles, as Romans 2 does, only to the Jews, and what will happen to them with the New Covenant. As I said you can't get to where you're going from what you are using. Jeremiah prophesies many things that were true - it doesn't help your case to claim he prophesied that which he did not. Jeremiah speaks only of the Jews.

The first person to speak of the New Covenant with respect to the Gentiles - is Paul. And this is recorded first in Scripture in Acts - in reality - revealed first to the Jews + Gentiles in Romans 2. That is the first time that anyone, and I mean anyone, preached that salvation was not limited to the Jews, but was open to all, Gentile and Jew. Acts was compiled later than Romans was written, as acts refers to things that happened to Paul that hadn't happened when he wrote Romans.

Quote
And your claim that Gentiles can’t be included in that covenant made between God and Israel

Which covenant are you talking about? The Old or the New?

Absolutely, they cannot be included in the Old. Matthew 15:21-8

"Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


1, Jesus states very clear that he was sent only to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.
2, Jesus does not say, "you are not the dogs" - no, she clearly states that there is a place even for the dogs at their Master's table.

We have to accept this - salvation was not made for us. God is still the God of the Jews - not of the Gentiles - he has made a covenant with Israel that he has not made with us.

Christ himself suffered and died for our sins, for all of our sins, so that we could be saved - that was the cost of 'opening up the table' with the New covenant. And we have been - grafted in, as Paul speaks of in Romans.

But let us not forget the fact - salvation was designed for the Jews.

Quote
is contradicted by your own previous point that the Gentile believers have been grafted in.

Nonsense, there are two covenants, and you are conflating the two. The new is not the old - and claiming that the New makes the same promises as the Old, conflates your own position. If that were true, we would still be in our sins and without the Holy Spirit. We would still be waiting for the Elijah who has not came.

Quote
1)   Jesus’ new covenant spoken of in the NT, and the OT prophesy of a future new covenant mentioned in Jer 31:33, are one and the same.

Where did I claim otherwise? All I asserted is that Jeremiah does not refer to the Gentiles, or prophesy that the Gentiles will be included. He says nothing of the sort.

Quote
2)   The Gentiles believers have been grafted into spiritual Israel and therefore are recipients of the new covenant mentioned in Jer 31:33.

But they are not native to it as the Jews are by virtue of the Old Covenant.

Quote
3)   Rom 2:15 is to be interpreted in the context of the other 7 verses pertaining to God writing his laws on the hearts of his people

But it does not preclude God doing so more than once. Smiley What you are asserting is that because God writes his words on the hearts of his believers, that those words were not already there from before.

If what you say is true - then what Jeremiah states makes no sense. He is saying that the laws are already written on their hearts (as in Proverbs), through the Old Covenant. Then he's writing his laws again - in the New Covernant promised.

The laws were already there prior to them being written again on their hearts in the New Testament.

Quote
Granted, the theologians you cited agree with me on points 1 & 2, yet disagreement with me on point 3

Then that should indicate there is something wrong with your argument on point three, rather than you arguing that I am arguing with you on points 1 and 2. Wink Just sayin'. If the dudes I'm quoting agree with you in part and disagree with you in part then perhaps that's why I'm quoting them - to show both the agreement and the disagreement?

I agree with you on points 1 and 2 wholeheartedly. Where we disagree on is point three - that the Law was not already written on the hearts prior to the establishment of the new covenant.

Quote
but I see NO REASON to make Rom 2:15 mean

I'm going to stop you here. Do you sincerely believe that if what was already written was not 'sticking', that the correct response isn't to rewrite it?

Quote
These “theologians” are simply grasping at straws

I would argue that if you are arguing that these theologians, who are Peter Kreeft and CS Lewis, are 'grasping at straws', then you have lost the argument here.

I'm sorry - you've probably failed to understand theirs, and my argument when you've made the assertion that we are out of step with 99 percent of what Christians believe. You've yet to cite anyone who shares your own opinion.

Quote
into order to attempt to make Rom 2:15 fit their viewpoint that non-Christians can be saved.

They can be saved. Romans 2:15 insists that this is how it works. You do not need to be a Christian in order to be saved. There are theologians who agree with you - I know their names, but I suspect that you do not. They are Catholic, btw. Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus? Fr. Feeny and his fellows? They were wrong then, just as I suspect you will be quick to proclaim them wrong.

Quote
But my approach is not to make Rom 2:15 fit my doctrine, rather I want to allow Rom 2:15 to be interpreted by the rest of scripture

Where does Jesus say that you have to be a Christian in order to be saved? What are the requirements for salvation? What did that fellow ask Jesus - and what was his answer?

"Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and the second is like it - love your neighbor as yourself."

Do you even have to have set foot in a church in order to do both of these?

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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 01:20:57 pm »
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this is a mess of a thread, and you are wrong on too many points for me to bother (most of all, saying that people are born with the laws of God written on their heart...even though the bible commanded the Jews of the OT to do so AND prophesied a new covenant in which God  would do just that very thing)...which is why I wanted to take it one point at a time.

so let me, again, state the points that 99% of Christianity agree with:

1)   the “new covenant” prophesied in Jer 31:33 between God and Israel, is the new covenant Jesus put into place at his death.
2)   Gentiles believers have been graphed into spiritual Israel and therefore have access to the new covenant.

Catholics are aware of this:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=223680

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9168

If you can't agree to the two points above, then just say so and we'll end this thread.

---

also, you wouldn’t happen to have a cousin named Derek, would you?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 01:23:51 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 01:56:57 pm »
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Ben,

I've glanced at your posting history to confirm that you are Catholic (I thought I had read that but wasn't sure)....and seeing that is clear the RCC believes in supercession - that the new covenant (Jer 31:33) completely superceded the Law of Moses AND that the Gentiles have been grafted into spiritual Israel and are now participants in the new covenant (Jer 31:33) put into effect through the blood of Christ ("At the Last Supper, he took the cup and said, 'Drink this, this is the blood of the new covenant'")...I don't know why we can't agree on supercession so that we can then discuss the attribute of the new covenant involving God writing his requirements on the hearts of people.

I will gladly talk about love and the need for the new covenant to provide us with a love that is compatible with God's laws regarding love, but we first need to agree on supercession before we talk about the specific attributes of the new covenant.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 02:06:17 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012, 01:59:29 pm »
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this is a mess of a thread, and you are wrong on too many points for me to bother

You started this discussion - and now you're bailing?

Quote
(most of all, saying that people are born with the laws of God written on their heart

Yes - they are, everyone is born with a conscience that informs them some of God's knowledge. Are you asserting that people are not born with a conscience, and that they aren't born with knowledge of good and evil?

Maybe they aren't born with sin either. Adam and Eve - it's right there.

Quote
even though the bible commanded the Jews of the OT to do so AND prophesied a new covenant in which God  would do just that very thing)...which is why I wanted to take it one point at a time.

Again, knowledge of good and evil which we all have is not the same as what is found in either the New or the Old covenant. Similar, but not the same.

Quote
state the points that 99% of Christianity agree with

Quote
1)   the “new covenant” prophesied in Jer 31:33 between God and Israel, is the new covenant Jesus put into place at his death.

Agreed.

Quote
2)   Gentiles believers have been graphed into spiritual Israel and therefore have access to the new covenant.

Also agree. So stop claiming that I disagree on either of these two points.

Quote
If you can't agree to the two points above, then just say so and we'll end this thread.

Did you even bother to read through my reply? I already said I agreed with both.
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 02:01:52 pm »
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I don't know why we can't agree on supercession so that we can then discuss the attribute of the new covenant involving God writing his requirements on the hearts of people.

Sigh.

This is what is so irritating. There is no disagreement here. Our only disagreement is over conscience and the knowledge of good and evil present in everyone prior to the Old + New Covenant. This is what St. Paul is referring to when he states - "they become a law unto themselves'. There have been whole books written on just this topic - it's that important.
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2012, 02:13:59 pm »
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I don't know why we can't agree on supercession so that we can then discuss the attribute of the new covenant involving God writing his requirements on the hearts of people.

Sigh.

This is what is so irritating. There is no disagreement here.

If there was no disagreement on this point, then you sure attempted to force disagreement:

Quote
1)   The New Covenant (Jer 31:33, entire book of Hebrews, Galatians, etc) and the covenant Jesus Christ institution upon his death…because they are one and the very same.

As opposed to the Old Covenant between the Jews and YHWH. Wink

---

Quote
Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant spoken about in Jer31:33

The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
   “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
   and with the people of Judah.

He specifically refers to the Jews, not the Gentiles. Wink You can't get there from here, jmcfast.

Those two points of mine which you took issue with, are EXACTLY the same points you now say,  ”Sigh. This is what is so irritating. There is no disagreement here…”

So, if you don’t have any disagreement with them, then stop disagreeing so that we can move this discussion to a conclusion.  OK?

---

So…since we now seem to be on the same page -  Jer 31:33 refers to the new covenant put in place by Christ...then here is the next question:

which of the following verses talking about what is written on the heart are NOT in the context of Jer 31:33 (the new covenant): Rom 2:15; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16?  because, the way I read them, they are ALL discussing the results of the new covenant.

Just tell me which ones are not in the context of Jer 31:33, and we’ll set those aside and review the ones we are in agreement with, so that we can build off points of agreement.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 04:02:43 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2012, 11:57:55 pm »
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...supercession...

kudos to the jmfcst for learning and using a theological term
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 07:34:51 pm »
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Just tell me which ones are not in the context of Jer 31:33, and we’ll set those aside and review the ones we are in agreement with, so that we can build off points of agreement.

Our disagreement centres around the question as to the proportion of God's law written on the hearts of those who came before Christ, and before the Old Testament.

That, is as far as I can discern our only disagreement. If I've understood you correctly, you believe that a person's conscience is not the same as the law written on their heart that St. Paul is referring to in Romans 2.
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 09:05:38 am »
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our disagreement centres around the question as to the proportion of God's law written on the hearts of those who came before Christ, and before the Old Testament.

That, is as far as I can discern our only disagreement. If I've understood you correctly, you believe that a person's conscience is not the same as the law written on their heart that St. Paul is referring to in Romans 2.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying: “laws written on the heart” is NOT the same thing as a conscience:

“laws written on their heart” = is symbolism and is just another way of saying people will receive a new nature when the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes through belief in Christ (i.e. “led by the Spirit”)….and the phrase “laws written on their heart” is also a contrast between the old covenant, which God himself wrote on stone tablets, and the new covenant, which God himself writes on the hearts of believers.  

“conscience” is simply my knowledge of right and wrong.

My “new nature” and my “conscience” are NOT one and the same thing, and I can prove that easily from that passage, for that’s why it says “ALSO”:

Rom 2: 14 “When Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences ALSO bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them

So, when a believer does wrong, he has two people convicting his heart: 1) the Holy Spirit, and 2) himself (his conscience)

Every part of Rom 2:14-15 describes someone filled with the Holy Spirit:

---

Your claim that the new covenant is a REwriting of God’s law on people’s hearts is NOT scriptural.  It does NOT say God will REwrite the laws on their hearts, nor is there a single instance where someone prior to the new covenant had the laws of God written on their hearts.

Anyone, regardless of how many books they have written, who attempts to interpret Rom 2:14-15 outside of the context of the other passages pertaining to “laws written on the heart” is going to end up with an interpretation that doesn’t mesh with the rest of the bible.

And this misinterpretation is NOT innocent; rather it is done with the motive to shrink back from the reality that belief in Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to be saved in the Church Age.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 03:57:13 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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