God's Law Written on Hearts

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

God writes his laws on people's hearts prior to the new covenant. He did so at creation and it has been passed on to all of us.

[This conversation is branching out too quickly, so I would like you to help me pull it back to singular points:]

From the above comment, you’re claiming that everyone has God's laws written on their hearts...and that that has been the case since creation.

But, if everyone born since creation has had God’s laws written on their hearts, then what was the need for a future new covenant to come in order to write the laws on people’s hearts?:

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[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Point being, that if God had written his laws on the heart of everyone from the beginning, then the new covenant in Jer 31:33 promising that very thing is pointless…

Basically, out of the 8 passages in the bible that refer to God’s laws being written on the heart (Pro 3:3;Pro 7:3;Jer 31:33; Rom 2:15; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16)…you’re claiming Rom 2:15 is NOT to be interpreted in the context of the other 7 references.

Also, last week you were claiming that the new covenant prophesied in Jer 31:33 is NOT the same new covenant that Jesus instituted upon his death…on that point, you are in disagreement with 99% of Christianity, and you are even in disagreement on that point with the Roman Catholic Church.  

And your claim that Gentiles can’t be included in that covenant made between God and Israel is contradicted by your own previous point that the Gentile believers have been grafted in.

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In summary, the points of my position are these:

1)   Jesus’ new covenant spoken of in the NT, and the OT prophesy of a future new covenant mentioned in Jer 31:33, are one and the same.  (and 99% of Christianity is in agreement with me on this point)
2)   The Gentiles believers have been grafted into spiritual Israel and therefore are recipients of the new covenant mentioned in Jer 31:33.
3)   Rom 2:15 is to be interpreted in the context of the other 7 verses pertaining to God writing his laws on the hearts of his people (Pro 3:3;Pro 7:3;Jer 31:33; Rom 2:15; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16).

Granted, the theologians you cited agree with me on points 1 & 2, yet disagreement with me on point 3…but I see NO REASON to make Rom 2:15 mean something different than the context of the other 7 verses.  These “theologians” are simply grasping at straws into order to attempt to make Rom 2:15 fit their viewpoint that non-Christians can be saved. But my approach is not to make Rom 2:15 fit my doctrine, rather I want to allow Rom 2:15 to be interpreted by the rest of scripture, by allowing scripture to interpret scripture:

1Cor 2:13 “ These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual”

If you compare Rom 2:15 with the other 7 passages (Pro 3:3;Pro 7:3;Jer 31:33; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16), there’s NO WAY to make it mean anything other than God writing the laws of the hearts of Gentile believers in Christ as a result of the new covenant.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

this is a mess of a thread, and you are wrong on too many points for me to bother (most of all, saying that people are born with the laws of God written on their heart...even though the bible commanded the Jews of the OT to do so AND prophesied a new covenant in which God  would do just that very thing)...which is why I wanted to take it one point at a time.

so let me, again, state the points that 99% of Christianity agree with:

1)   the “new covenant” prophesied in Jer 31:33 between God and Israel, is the new covenant Jesus put into place at his death.
2)   Gentiles believers have been graphed into spiritual Israel and therefore have access to the new covenant.

Catholics are aware of this:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=223680

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9168

If you can't agree to the two points above, then just say so and we'll end this thread.

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also, you wouldn’t happen to have a cousin named Derek, would you?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Ben,

I've glanced at your posting history to confirm that you are Catholic (I thought I had read that but wasn't sure)....and seeing that is clear the RCC believes in supercession - that the new covenant (Jer 31:33) completely superceded the Law of Moses AND that the Gentiles have been grafted into spiritual Israel and are now participants in the new covenant (Jer 31:33) put into effect through the blood of Christ ("At the Last Supper, he took the cup and said, 'Drink this, this is the blood of the new covenant'")...I don't know why we can't agree on supercession so that we can then discuss the attribute of the new covenant involving God writing his requirements on the hearts of people.

I will gladly talk about love and the need for the new covenant to provide us with a love that is compatible with God's laws regarding love, but we first need to agree on supercession before we talk about the specific attributes of the new covenant.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

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Sigh.

This is what is so irritating. There is no disagreement here.

If there was no disagreement on this point, then you sure attempted to force disagreement:

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As opposed to the Old Covenant between the Jews and YHWH.

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The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
   “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
   and with the people of Judah.

He specifically refers to the Jews, not the Gentiles. You can't get there from here, jmcfast.

Those two points of mine which you took issue with, are EXACTLY the same points you now say,  ”Sigh. This is what is so irritating. There is no disagreement here…”

So, if you don’t have any disagreement with them, then stop disagreeing so that we can move this discussion to a conclusion.  OK?

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So…since we now seem to be on the same page -  Jer 31:33 refers to the new covenant put in place by Christ...then here is the next question:

which of the following verses talking about what is written on the heart are NOT in the context of Jer 31:33 (the new covenant): Rom 2:15; 2Cor 3:2; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10;Heb 10:16?  because, the way I read them, they are ALL discussing the results of the new covenant.

Just tell me which ones are not in the context of Jer 31:33, and we’ll set those aside and review the ones we are in agreement with, so that we can build off points of agreement.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

...supercession...

kudos to the jmfcst for learning and using a theological term

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

our disagreement centres around the question as to the proportion of God's law written on the hearts of those who came before Christ, and before the Old Testament.

That, is as far as I can discern our only disagreement. If I've understood you correctly, you believe that a person's conscience is not the same as the law written on their heart that St. Paul is referring to in Romans 2.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying: “laws written on the heart” is NOT the same thing as a conscience:

“laws written on their heart” = is symbolism and is just another way of saying people will receive a new nature when the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes through belief in Christ (i.e. “led by the Spirit”)….and the phrase “laws written on their heart” is also a contrast between the old covenant, which God himself wrote on stone tablets, and the new covenant, which God himself writes on the hearts of believers.  

“conscience” is simply my knowledge of right and wrong.

My “new nature” and my “conscience” are NOT one and the same thing, and I can prove that easily from that passage, for that’s why it says “ALSO”:

Rom 2: 14 “When Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences ALSO bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them

So, when a believer does wrong, he has two people convicting his heart: 1) the Holy Spirit, and 2) himself (his conscience)

Every part of Rom 2:14-15 describes someone filled with the Holy Spirit:

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Your claim that the new covenant is a REwriting of God’s law on people’s hearts is NOT scriptural.  It does NOT say God will REwrite the laws on their hearts, nor is there a single instance where someone prior to the new covenant had the laws of God written on their hearts.

Anyone, regardless of how many books they have written, who attempts to interpret Rom 2:14-15 outside of the context of the other passages pertaining to “laws written on the heart” is going to end up with an interpretation that doesn’t mesh with the rest of the bible.

And this misinterpretation is NOT innocent; rather it is done with the motive to shrink back from the reality that belief in Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to be saved in the Church Age.