Santorum: Obama 'A Snob' For Wanting Everyone To Go To College

[IDS Speaker Ben Kenobi]

Yes, there are lots of people who didn't finish high school, or who finished high school but didn't get any further education, who've done well for themselves, because they've worked hard and made good choices. There are also people who have advanced university degrees who don't do well. But averages matter, too.

So does 80k in debt.

[Likely Voter]

I thought it would be useful to review what Obama actually said in the SOTU

Tonight i ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. This can be a community college or a four-year school. vocational training or an apprenticeship, but whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma.

If you hear that and think, Obama is trying to indoctrinate our kids into an elitist secular mindset, then you really need to get out more.

[Politico]

Also, why have we never discussed the comments Obama made about high school in his SOTU? He practically implied he is in favor of mandatory schooling until 18, not 16. Mind-boggling, if you ask me. It reminds me of the proverb, "you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink it..."

Let's see -- what prospects do high-school dropouts usually have?

Destitution

Crime

Early death

I am not disagreeing, but what do you think pushing the mandatory age from 16 to 18 is going to accomplish? If somebody wants to drop out at 16, they should be allowed to do so. They're never going to finish either way, and forcing them to continue through 18 is a drain on resources that would be better applied to people who actually want to be there to learn. There are only so many resources to go around. We live in a world of scarcity. You cannot legislate away problems with the stroke of a pen. And most of these fancy ideas from Washington just create more problems without solving the original problems. The federal government should be out of education altogether. Resources are better allocated at the state/local level.

[Politico]

Offers man nothing? What does man offer himself? I was on a job 4 years ago and the subcontractor dropped out of high school during his second year of 9th grade and was making $126,000 a year. Tell him he needed to go to college so he can make $70,000. Most of my friends graduating from college can't find work and it's because we have too many people qualified for high paying jobs that don't exist in such high numbers.  Several people going to college only rack up debt. We can't all be doctors and lawyers.  If we were all doctors, then who would teach school? The perfect economy has a perfect balance among sectors. At my buddy's office, there are people with Ph.D's in molecular biology and nuclear physics making only $30,000 a year. College is only good for an individual if you put it to use. To Obama who doesn't understand any of this because of his elitist and liberal background, looks down on people who don't go to college or so it seems. Or, perhaps he just wants more debt in order to enslave people towards the federal government. His idea for 10 years working for the government in exchange for elimination of school debt screams of ancient Rome's policies of enslavement for those of you who are ignorant of classical culture.  I know it's easy to jump the gun and talk on impulse, "education is imporant because it's our future" or "not going to college makes someone less intelligent." Tell those things to my subcontractor friend making $126,000 a year. Explain to me IN DEPTH DETAIL how it would be productive for us to have only doctors and lawyers?  Who would work the farms, grow food, package products, cook?  Please explain in depth detail to me how those professions are less noble or somehow below being a doctor or lawyer?

You're absolutely right. The tragic part is that government interference causes a lot of the shortages and excess-supply problems (i.e., surpluses) we experience over a sustained period. If markets were allowed to operate more freely, America would have less of what it does not want/need (i.e., less instances of excess supply) and more of what it does want/need (i.e., less instances of excess demand; shortages).

[pbrower2a]

non-selective colleges that allow about anyone in who will pay the tuition or take out a loan for education.

Do you have any facts to back up this assertion - I'm seeing just the opposite.

It may not be so much that institutions like Harvard, Stanford, Rice, the University of Chicago, MIT, Cal Tech, and some top-notch public universities (California, Michigan, Illinois, Texas)   are better at teaching as it is that they get better mental material to begin with. SAT and ACH scores mean something. Attending "Kegger State" or "Biblical Literalism University" doesn't help a young adult  on the average. That's not snobbery but certifiable qualification (intelligence and not being a scatterbrain) associated with academic success.

Face it -- the US worked its way out of the Great Depression largely through the formation of small businesses that depended upon whole-family effort, low yields, and long-term investment that people couldn't run from without losing everything. It is now difficult to compete with the chains that take advantage of the benefits of vertical integration and economies of scale on everything from advertising to tax compliance. The tax structure of an effectively-flat tax upon business income above about $100K now favors giant corporations  over mom-and-pop organizations.  Maybe we need to go back to the high graduated taxes that gave small businesses a niche in food service, retailing, banking, and even manufacturing as during the 1950s.

[IDS Speaker Ben Kenobi]

It may not be so much that institutions like Harvard, Stanford, Rice, the University of Chicago, MIT, Cal Tech, and some top-notch public universities (California, Michigan, Illinois, Texas)   are better at teaching as it is that they get better mental material to begin with.

I've seen studies showing that effectively - Harvard, Yale and the Ivies in general do not substantially ouperform their colleagues at much smaller universities. Granted - the spread is much larger, but the differences are negligible. Is it worth paying the 150k or whatever it is for the Ivies now? For some, sure, but if you can get 80-90 percent of the benefit on 10 percent of the cost then who's ahead here?

SAT and ACH scores mean something. Attending "Kegger State" or "Biblical Literalism University" doesn't help a young adult  on the average. That's not snobbery but certifiable qualification (intelligence and not being a scatterbrain) associated with academic success.

Sans evidence for this case, yes, it's entirely based on reputation and not results, and is pure snobbery. Again, you can get about 80-90 percent of the benefit of the Ivies at a smaller university/college for a fraction of the cost.

Face it -- the US worked its way out of the Great Depression largely through the formation of small businesses that depended upon whole-family effort, low yields, and long-term investment that people couldn't run from without losing everything. It is now difficult to compete with the chains that take advantage of the benefits of vertical integration and economies of scale on everything from advertising to tax compliance. The tax structure of an effectively-flat tax upon business income above about $100K now favors giant corporations  over mom-and-pop organizations.  Maybe we need to go back to the high graduated taxes that gave small businesses a niche in food service, retailing, banking, and even manufacturing as during the 1950s.

Yeah, and we can kill the already suffering economy. Sounds like a great idea. 90+ percentage taxes just like in the Great depression.

Can we call this Great depression II?

[crypto-fascist superhero]

Sans evidence for this case, yes, it's entirely based on reputation and not results, and is pure snobbery. Again, you can get about 80-90 percent of the benefit of the Ivies at a smaller university/college for a fraction of the cost.

Not really, since the real-world benefit of college is less education and more obtaining connections and putting something impressive on your resume.

[Politico]

Can we call this Great depression II?

Only if Obama is re-elected. The "hipsters" won't think Obama is hip when they're living off Campbell's tomato soup and unable to afford electricity, let alone cell phones and the Internet.

[Free Palestine]

Can we call this Great depression II?

Only if Obama is re-elected. The "hipsters" won't think Obama is hip when they're living off Campbell's tomato soup and unable to afford electricity, let alone cell phones and the Internet.

>Implying Mitt Romney and the Republicans will make it any better.

[IDS Speaker Ben Kenobi]

Not really, since the real-world benefit of college is less education and more obtaining connections and putting something impressive on your resume.

Which is why lying on your resume earns you the same benefit. There was a study showing this to be the case. Take random people from a phone book - stick harvard graduate on their resume, and they seem to do about as well as Harvard folks.

What this shows is that you're paying 150k for a line on your resume.

[crypto-fascist superhero]

Not really, since the real-world benefit of college is less education and more obtaining connections and putting something impressive on your resume.

Which is why lying on your resume earns you the same benefit. There was a study showing this to be the case. Take random people from a phone book - stick harvard graduate on their resume, and they seem to do about as well as Harvard folks.

What this shows is that you're paying 150k for a line on your resume.

Uh, you could try putting "Harvard graduate" on your resume, but you'd eventually get found out and possibly be sent to prison.

[ajb]

It may not be so much that institutions like Harvard, Stanford, Rice, the University of Chicago, MIT, Cal Tech, and some top-notch public universities (California, Michigan, Illinois, Texas)   are better at teaching as it is that they get better mental material to begin with.

I've seen studies showing that effectively - Harvard, Yale and the Ivies in general do not substantially ouperform their colleagues at much smaller universities. Granted - the spread is much larger, but the differences are negligible. Is it worth paying the 150k or whatever it is for the Ivies now? For some, sure, but if you can get 80-90 percent of the benefit on 10 percent of the cost then who's ahead here?

The "fraction of the cost" thing isn't as true as it used to be. Over the past decade, the Ivies moved in the direction of making admissions needs-blind, and financial aid needs-based. At the same time, state legislatures across the country made the choice to shift more of the cost of undergraduate education away from taxpayers, and towards students.  As a result, for lots of kids from lower or middle-income households, it can actually be cheaper to attend an Ivy League school than a flagship state university.

[Secretary Polnut]

For what it's worth, I think forcing someone to stay in school when they could getting an apprenticeship or undertaking more technical training is not necessarily right. However, there's the issue of encouraging kids to give themselves the best opportunity out in this current market by upskilling.

Listen to Obama's 2009 SotU, it's not about turning everyone in a latte/chardonnay, volvo-driving, Proust-reading liberal. It's about the hard truth that MOST people who don't try to invest time and energy into further education and training have a very difficult time in a tight job market.

However, to construe that as some kind of social conditioning or the bs that Santorum is spouting is utter stupidity. Santorum might be helping his base by scaring them about the "exotic" Professor in the White House - but it's going to further alienate the Independent voters who are already turning on the GOP candidates... every time they open their mouths.

[America First]

Well said Polnut.  The only entertaining thing about the GOP race is seeing if the candidates will run out of feet to put in their mouth before they run out of room to stick additional feet in their mouth.

[True Federalist]

Polnut, while Rick could have said it more skillfully, the fact is that there is a considerable portion of this country who can remember when it was possible to get a decent middle-class job with just a secondary education.  They are resentful of the fact that it now generally takes tertiary education, and doubly resentful that this is because of a flawed secondary education system.

Feel free to disagree with the prescription that Dr. Rick has for the problem (I do) and with what he is attributing its cause to, but the symptoms are real, and Dr. Barack's "tertiary education for everyone elixir" is not the medicine the patients want.

[Secretary Polnut]

Polnut, while Rick could have said it more skillfully, the fact is that there is a considerable portion of this country who can remember when it was possible to get a decent middle-class job with just a secondary education.  They are resentful of the fact that it now generally takes tertiary education, and doubly resentful that this is because of a flawed secondary education system.

Feel free to disagree with the prescription that Dr. Rick has for the problem (I do) and with what he is attributing its cause to, but the symptoms are real, and Dr. Barack's "tertiary education for everyone elixir" is not the medicine the patients want.

I don't disagree completely, what I do disagree with is the attitude that this is some kind of social programming, it's reality.

[Tidewater_Wave]

We might want to look at some data here:
Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment, Jan 2012:
Less than a High School Diploma: 15.0
High School Diploma, No College: 9.5
Some College/Associate Degree: 7.5
Bachelor's Degree or Higher: 4.4

The labor force participation rates for these same for groups are:
Less than a High School Diploma: 45.3
High School Diploma, No College: 59.8
Some College/Associate Degree: 69.3
Bachelor's Degree or Higher: 75.7

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm
Yes, there are lots of people who didn't finish high school, or who finished high school but didn't get any further education, who've done well for themselves, because they've worked hard and made good choices. There are also people who have advanced university degrees who don't do well. But averages matter, too.

This is true but if everyone has a college degree and competes for high salaried jobs, then what happens to jobs that produce products and other services? Alot of why our manufacturing sector is gone is because people go to college instead of trade school. This is what happens when everyone goes to college. Again, college is good if you end up doing something that requires a degree.

The reason those jobs in manufacturing are going overseas is because it's possible to pay people in other countries a tenth as much money as American workers cost. They're often much less productive workers than Americans would be, but if wages are low enough, that's not a problem.

Still my point remains that if everyone is a doctor or lawyer, no one would be there to manufacture products. You can bring back all the jobs you want and no one would be here to do them if we were all college graduates. Also, you're right about being able to pay people less. With as high as corporate taxes are here I wouldn't start a company on this soil. Without corporate taxes companies would come back because it would again be profitable to do business in the U.S. Unfortunately the Democrats can't stand that because they wouldn't be in control of every nook and cranny of our lives. Our money would be worth more too if we as Americans could agree to accept lower wages as a whole, but it would have to be simultaneous. By having less monetary to enforce lower prices, the value of our dollar goes up as well. You probably don't agree with me about this being the best way to do things which there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see the government solving this problem. It's not a new problem and no difference has been made. I consider myself a moderate actually, but when it comes to education and economics, I'm a Goldwater/Reagan conservative.

[Secretary Polnut]

We might want to look at some data here:
Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment, Jan 2012:
Less than a High School Diploma: 15.0
High School Diploma, No College: 9.5
Some College/Associate Degree: 7.5
Bachelor's Degree or Higher: 4.4

The labor force participation rates for these same for groups are:
Less than a High School Diploma: 45.3
High School Diploma, No College: 59.8
Some College/Associate Degree: 69.3
Bachelor's Degree or Higher: 75.7

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm
Yes, there are lots of people who didn't finish high school, or who finished high school but didn't get any further education, who've done well for themselves, because they've worked hard and made good choices. There are also people who have advanced university degrees who don't do well. But averages matter, too.

This is true but if everyone has a college degree and competes for high salaried jobs, then what happens to jobs that produce products and other services? Alot of why our manufacturing sector is gone is because people go to college instead of trade school. This is what happens when everyone goes to college. Again, college is good if you end up doing something that requires a degree.

The reason those jobs in manufacturing are going overseas is because it's possible to pay people in other countries a tenth as much money as American workers cost. They're often much less productive workers than Americans would be, but if wages are low enough, that's not a problem.

Still my point remains that if everyone is a doctor or lawyer, no one would be there to manufacture products. You can bring back all the jobs you want and no one would be here to do them if we were all college graduates. Also, you're right about being able to pay people less. With as high as corporate taxes are here I wouldn't start a company on this soil. Without corporate taxes companies would come back because it would again be profitable to do business in the U.S. Unfortunately the Democrats can't stand that because they wouldn't be in control of every nook and cranny of our lives. Our money would be worth more too if we as Americans could agree to accept lower wages as a whole, but it would have to be simultaneous. By having less monetary to enforce lower prices, the value of our dollar goes up as well. You probably don't agree with me about this being the best way to do things which there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see the government solving this problem. It's not a new problem and no difference has been made. I consider myself a moderate actually, but when it comes to education and economics, I'm a Goldwater/Reagan conservative.

Is anyone actually saying that everyone should go to college and become and doctor or lawyer?!

There is soooo much reaching going on here.

[Yank2133]

I am still puzzled how this is some complex issue......

[Tidewater_Wave]

We might want to look at some data here:
Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment, Jan 2012:
Less than a High School Diploma: 15.0
High School Diploma, No College: 9.5
Some College/Associate Degree: 7.5
Bachelor's Degree or Higher: 4.4

The labor force participation rates for these same for groups are:
Less than a High School Diploma: 45.3
High School Diploma, No College: 59.8
Some College/Associate Degree: 69.3
Bachelor's Degree or Higher: 75.7

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm
Yes, there are lots of people who didn't finish high school, or who finished high school but didn't get any further education, who've done well for themselves, because they've worked hard and made good choices. There are also people who have advanced university degrees who don't do well. But averages matter, too.

This is true but if everyone has a college degree and competes for high salaried jobs, then what happens to jobs that produce products and other services? Alot of why our manufacturing sector is gone is because people go to college instead of trade school. This is what happens when everyone goes to college. Again, college is good if you end up doing something that requires a degree.

The reason those jobs in manufacturing are going overseas is because it's possible to pay people in other countries a tenth as much money as American workers cost. They're often much less productive workers than Americans would be, but if wages are low enough, that's not a problem.

Still my point remains that if everyone is a doctor or lawyer, no one would be there to manufacture products. You can bring back all the jobs you want and no one would be here to do them if we were all college graduates. Also, you're right about being able to pay people less. With as high as corporate taxes are here I wouldn't start a company on this soil. Without corporate taxes companies would come back because it would again be profitable to do business in the U.S. Unfortunately the Democrats can't stand that because they wouldn't be in control of every nook and cranny of our lives. Our money would be worth more too if we as Americans could agree to accept lower wages as a whole, but it would have to be simultaneous. By having less monetary to enforce lower prices, the value of our dollar goes up as well. You probably don't agree with me about this being the best way to do things which there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see the government solving this problem. It's not a new problem and no difference has been made. I consider myself a moderate actually, but when it comes to education and economics, I'm a Goldwater/Reagan conservative.

Is anyone actually saying that everyone should go to college and become and doctor or lawyer?!

There is soooo much reaching going on here.

Yes I know alot of people who say that and feel like their jobs are worthless which causes them to have no motivation in life or in their career. This stems from the liberal idea that if you don't go to college, then you can't accomplish anything. If the Democrats came right out and said that they'd lose votes so they speak in slick ways about it such as, "making college more affordable," or "equal opportunity." It's all a scam to get everyone enslaved to the federal government through school loans. Obama advocates this by wanting college graduates to work for the federal government in exchange for waving loan payments. For those of you who are ignorant to ancient history, this is what Rome defined as slavery.  Slavery back then meant someone who owed money or favors to another individual or body.