Who do you favor in the Israel-Palestine conflict?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I'm just saying what would work best, not what people want. The Palestinian desire for a state really is a bit silly though considering Jordan is practically a Palestinian state as is, and any independent "Palestine" would be much poorer.

According to this logic, Israel should have been formed in Africa.

[k-onmmunist]

I'm just saying what would work best, not what people want. The Palestinian desire for a state really is a bit silly though considering Jordan is practically a Palestinian state as is, and any independent "Palestine" would be much poorer.

According to this logic, Israel should have been formed in Africa.

Explain.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

Thanks everyone for clearing me up with the history I only started learning this stuff a few months ago

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Today, in the Palm Beach Post "Letters to the Editor" section, I was treated to a slew of pro war, pro Israel letters. One referred to Israel as "the 51st state" and that "if they go, we go". What is it with this “Israel is infallible” stuff that the so called "right" spreads?

[Insula Dei]

I am, to stay somewhat within the very limited framework of the question, very pro-Palestinian, without necessarily being in love with the leaders of the Palestinian people.

One of the most idiotic things I've read just a little too often about this, is the suggestion that the state Israel is justified based on some promises by the British during WWI, or on some UN resolution. The land was not the UK's to give away, nor did the UN have the authority to do so. Honestly people, does anyone actually think fuzzily enough to not be able to make that distinction?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If I was feeling mindlessly mischievous, I probably ask whether that means that Turkey (as the successor to the Ottoman Empire and all that) should have had the final decision.

Slightly (?) more seriously, it's obviously silly to attempt to 'justify' anything based on waving conflicting pieces of paper around. The 'justification' for Israel is its existence, the 'justification' for some kind of functioning Palestinian state is the existence of the Palestinian people. Which is also why internet discussions of the general issue tend to be so utterly depressing, because this is not generally appreciated...

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Egypt certainly has no desire to take the Gaza Strip.

And Jordan doesn't want the West Bank.

King Hussein renounced his claims to the West Bank in favor of the "future Palestinian state".

And Palestinians wants their own state. Not to be a part of Egypt or Jordan.

Well we're never getting a solution that will make all sides happy, might as well make them all unhappy. I still believe that'd be the best solution to maintain peace.

[The Mikado]

I don't think it'd be a great solution precisely because the Jordanians are deeply hostile to the idea of annexing the West Bank and taking on millions more Palestinians as charity cases.  The West Bank is far poorer than Jordan and Jordan has no interest in turning a big chunk of its economy to subsidizing the West Bank.  Same goes to a lesser extent for Egypt and Gaza.

[traininthedistance]

What I favour, above all else, is less utterly stupid discussions on the internet about the topic. It's an extremely complicated situation involving several extremely complicated societies and without any obvious solutions, not a bloody football game.

[Gustaf]

I am, to stay somewhat within the very limited framework of the question, very pro-Palestinian, without necessarily being in love with the leaders of the Palestinian people.

One of the most idiotic things I've read just a little too often about this, is the suggestion that the state Israel is justified based on some promises by the British during WWI, or on some UN resolution. The land was not the UK's to give away, nor did the UN have the authority to do so. Honestly people, does anyone actually think fuzzily enough to not be able to make that distinction?

Do you apply that logic the other way around as well?

Anyway, I favour Israel. Which of course does not mean that I favour everything they have done or opposes a Palestinian state. I'm not like the fanatic pro-Palestine hipsters...

[Lief 🗽]

I support the Palestinians, as they are victims of Israeli imperialism. The fact that they lob a couple of (more or less) harmless missiles over the border every now and again while they are being murdered en masse and having their homes bulldozed and their land stolen and illegally given to Israeli colonists is a pretty ridiculous reason to throw one's hands up and label them just as bad.

[dead0man]

They lob a "couple" of missles while Israelis murder Arabs "en masse".  Dude, your facts are strange.  Let me guess, you think the people of Gaza are "starving" too?

[Lief 🗽]

With regards to the rockets, 28 Israelis have died from rocket attacks (though many more have been injured of course). Fatah has condemned the rocket attacks and polls taken since 2010 show that majorities of Palestinians oppose the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel.

[Beet]

I supported the peace process, the Israeli Labour party, the PLO, and the Camp David talks. In other words, my position is the absurd, the pathetic, the defeated.

[dead0man]

Nice copy and paste graph.....what percentage of the red bars are terrorists?...what percantage of the blue columns are civilians minding their own buisness?  Israel doesn't randomly send the Army into an Arab village to kill 50 Arabs at a time.  They usually have an excuse, like 40 rockets being fired (not a "couple") and they usually try to avoid civilian casualties (instead of, ya know aiming at civilians...that I'll remind us all again Xahar is in favor of).

[Pingvin]

Idea of Palestinians deserving their state is stupid as Jersey Shore. Also, both needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW.

[Lief 🗽]

About 1/3 of the Palestinians were known to have been taking part in hostilities when they were killed. About half were known not to have been taking part in hostilities when they were killed (this does not included those who were "collateral damage" in targeted killings). Meanwhile, about a quarter of the Israeli deaths are Israeli soldiers who were killed. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a breakdown of how many of the killed Israeli civilians were participating in hostilities at the time of their death.

source: http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I supported the peace process, the Israeli Labour party, the PLO, and the Camp David talks. In other words, my position is the absurd, the pathetic, the defeated.

Ah, I see what you did there.

[dead0man]

You can add a couple more to your list Lief.  link

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[dead0man]

You can add a couple more to your list Lief.  link

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+8

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[Lief 🗽]

I'm not sure what the point you're making is, dead0. Of course many Palestinian combatants are going to be killed. And of course those combatants are going to use tactics that have proven effective in the past for vastly out-gunned and out-manned groups, such as terrorism. Generally when an imperial power colonizes a territory, there is resistance from the natives, resulting in casualties on both sides, though generally much, much more on the side of the conquered peoples. Have you seen Zulu? It's a very good film and illustrates this point well.

[dead0man]

How are their current tactics effective in any way?  Unless their goal is to get their own people killed for the PR.

But my point is that there is a reason for the lopsided looking numbers.  The Israelies don't want people to die, they have alarms and defensive shields and drill drill drill saftey.  They don't put military targets in neighborhoods.  The people they are fighting don't freaking care if people die, their own or Israelies, they just don't care.

....and again, the tactics they are using are not working, haven't worked and will never work.  I suggest (again) they look to MLK Jr or Gandhi for inspiration on effecting change in a system they don't like.  Or they can keep dying, it's up to them, not me or you or the people of Israel.

[Miles]

I support the Palestinians, as they are victims of Israeli imperialism. The fact that they lob a couple of (more or less) harmless missiles over the border every now and again while they are being murdered en masse and having their homes bulldozed and their land stolen and illegally given to Israeli colonists is a pretty ridiculous reason to throw one's hands up and label them just as bad.

See, we agree on that. I musn't be as bad as you made me out to be....

[dead0man]

A "couple" more rocket attacks today aimed at civilians...and by "couple" we mean 64.  Which is a lot more than 39 yesterday or 30ish the day before that.  Thank Science for the Iron Dome heh?!  These are not fired by HAMAS (but are allowed by HAMAS), but the Iranian backed Popular Resistance Committee (PRC).  Palestinians are dying "en masse" and by that we mean 21 (of which at least 18 were terrorists).  Why?  Well last summer the PRC did that cross border raiding thing which killed 6 Israeli civilians and 1 soldier and they were planning another, bigger one for this week when the guy in charge was killed, thus sparking the "outrage".

Of course Egypt doesn't see it that way and their People’s Assembly voted unanimously to recall their ambassador and force out the Israeli one.

[dead0man]

Sweet, a ceasefire brokered by Egypt has taken place....well for a couple of hours.  Guess who broke it?

Meanwhile, Syria has had enough.  This brutality by the Isrealies has been too much for the peaceful rulers in Damascus. 

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In yet another shocker, the NGOs that care about human rights have failed to condemn the the terrorist acts.

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Indeed.