Shouldn't limited govt work and mostly private sector work be a disadvantage? (user search)
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  Shouldn't limited govt work and mostly private sector work be a disadvantage? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Shouldn't limited govt work and mostly private sector work be a disadvantage?  (Read 3209 times)
Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« on: March 03, 2012, 07:25:26 PM »

"1. I cannot think of any other profession where a limited amount of experience is seen an advantage."

Do you see it as more of a profession or as a service? If it is the latter, then that radically changes how you view politics.

If it's a profession, then yes, time spent in office in minor positions and working your way up is the way it works. However, if it is service, then what you want to see is experience outside of the government.

This is why Cain was so popular, because he appealed to those who wanted someone who was competent and outside the system. People are unhappy with the system at present.

"2. Romney believes that the main problem confronting the U.S. is the bad economy, and he is best qualified to fix the economy because he has worked as a businessman. But a businessman is an expert on business. If we needed an expert on the economy to be the President, shouldn't we be looking for.... an economist?"

A businessman has practical experiences working with the economy - as a businessman has to respond successfully to market forces or go bankrupt. Think of it as the difference between theory and practice. An economist understands how the market functions in theory but might not necessarily be able to use that knowledge effectively. A good businessman understands how it works in practice, even if they don't necessarily understand the theory behind it.

"3. If I was a conservative, and I wanted someone who would enact conservative change, I would want someone who had the experience and history of enacting conservative change."

What do conservatives believe? A conservative believes that the constitution comes first. In short, they are opposed to change that is contrary to the constitution, and supportive of change that undoes things that are contrary to the constitution.

The constitution speaks in favor of limited government, ergo a conservative is always going to be suspicious of politicians, especially politics as a profession. Which is why you get conservatives arguing for those with experience outside of the government.

"what they did when they were in public office, and not how they lived their  personal lives."

That's because you're a liberal. A conservative bundles those all together. To a conservative, personal lives are relevant because someone who manages small things well, is more trustworthy with larger things. See, a conservative doesn't distinguish between 'personal life' and 'life in office;.

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By definition a conservative politician is working against his own occupation, because if you believe that less government is best, then you'll be working to put yourself out of a job.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 03:57:56 PM »

Have you seen public sector pensions? They are exorbitant and funded by taxpayers who have no hope of seeing similar plans. How is this fair?
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 04:37:22 PM »

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Public sector now makes much more on average than the private sector, before even taking benefits into account.


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Again, how is it fair to tax people who are less well off than you to pay for your pension benefits? I'm seeing things like pensions requiring a significantly lower proportion of payment than in the private sector. Essentially, the folks that are working scraping together a living are payinig for the pensions of private sector workers who make much more than them.

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There's simply no other way - the money is gone, and has been spent.

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There's no money for the public sector anymore. They can jack up taxes all they want - they aren't going to fund their massive pension obligations.

You do realize that the public sector assumes a 7 percent yearly return just to keep level with the benefits they already pay out?
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 10:38:03 PM »

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Taxing the public to provide pensions for people who are wealthier than the median isn't just a regressive tax, it's exactly the same as the tithes that used to be paid.

It's really no difference. The peasants farm the land and the nobles benefit.

They should get the same deal as private folks do - fund your pension 50 percent and the government kicks in the other half.

Instead, we're seeing that they don't have to fund their pensions, or even kick in 5 percent.

I do the exact same thing as a teacher - but I have to pay taxes so that other teachers who make more than I do get their pensions. Again - this is not fair. And I'm really tired of getting a chunk out of my paycheck going to these follks, when I could really use that money to save up for my own retirement.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 11:43:36 AM »
« Edited: March 05, 2012, 11:48:44 AM by Ben Kenobi »

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Which is why unions fight tooth and nail agaisnt the unionization of their own employees. Simple principle, if Unionization were for the benefits of the worker, then the union representatives would unionize themselves. It's clearly not beneficial to the worker, but it is beneficial to the unions - which is why the Unions try to make it so that the rank and file have no say.

This is why the unions are attacking governor Walker, for severing the automatic paycheck deductions for public union members. They know that if the rank and file actually sees the money in their pocket, that they are going to keep the money.

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The concept of firing people to keep the bottom line, and keeping only productive workers is anathema to government bureaucracy. This is why people want to change the system they are fed up paying for the bureaucrats.

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Competitiveness is profitability - competitive businesses make a profit where the free market works.

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Then the solution is to reduce the size of the government so that the benefit accrued by essentially bribing government officials is reduced. The problem isn't the business, but the red tape created by the government which inhibits competition. I've seen it in the businesses that I work for - you want to get any actual work done, you have to spend about 50 percent of your time negotiating with the bureaucrats. It's really frustrating.

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Think of it as conservation of money. Value cannot be created or destroyed - merely changed.

They can increase the money supply by adding zeros, but they cannot increase the value of the currency. Any increase in the money supply will provoke the inverse force of inflation to keep the value at exactly the same as it was.

Inflation is good for the debtors, and bad for the creditors, which is why the government likes it. It means that the money it used to borrow stuff from before is worth less than the money they have now.

Deflation on the other hand is the enemy for governments, because it rewards thrift, economy, and destroys debtors. This is why the governments panicked when gas prices dropped 50 percent. I remember that - those were fun times. My bills were slashed in half! It was great!

But alas, it wasn't to be and they screwed us all by 'saving' the debtors with the thrifty. Now its' 2012, 4 years later and we're still suffering even worse now because what was held from before is now gone.

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As opposed to the current community organiser who has a powerful incentive to reward his croneys (look at the Czars?)

Heck if it's between a CEO and Obama, I know who I'm choosing. Obama has been great - if you happen to be on the gravy train. Otherwise you're screwed.

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Oh, which is why Granholm was ridiculed as an objective failure. Which is why the leadership of Detroit has resulted in the halving of the population of the city?

I don't think you're being objective here. Michigan has had terrible leadership, and Detroit has been even worse. At least the CEO and businessman has Michigan running on a fiscally sound basis that will pay dividends in the future.

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Well, the problem is that austerity is now inevitable, thanks to government largesse. It didn't have to be that way, but because Obama's spent all the seed corn, now the government has to get back on a sound fiscal footing. The sooner they do so, the easier it will be to turn back.

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Wasn't it Obama who made the comment about gun owners and Christians as 'bitter clingers'. Heck, I know the administration sees Catholics as vermin too - hence their attacks on Dolan and the Catholic church in America.

I see no evidence for your statement that CEO's see working people as livestock. I see plenty that the state and the bureaucrats do.

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Guys like with Fanny and Freddy? Last I checked that's where the Obama stash has gone - to prop up his banker friends. That's why folks like Barney Franks are still in congress and not in jail.

You're right, but you're aiming at the wrong folks. This administration is not interested in punishing any of those responsible for the lending - it's protecting them because the Obama administration has been part of this from day one.

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Do you think Jefferson endorsed one making a career of state business? No. All of them had their own property, their own responsibilities both before and after they left office. Term limits act as a break on those who would exploit the people for their own gain, and act as a check on the power of congress.

This is why every edition of congress opposes term limits because it's not in their best interest. Which is why we get people who serve in congress for 60+ years.

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Which is a good thing.

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Nonsense, if the incumbant cannot run, that gives the people more not less say

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Heh, not so. Only if you assume what you are trying to prove. One can accomplish quite a bit as a two-term representative. Look at Polk who did in one term more than most presidents do in two.
 
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Most conservatives are not employers. Most conservatives are employees.

What we want is:

A decent job where we can earn enough to support our families without relying on government assistance.

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Right to work legislation, restores the constitutional relationship between we the people and the state. A person should not have to get permission from a union to begin employment. A person should be able to seek whatever employment they wish, and stay employed without having to pay a bounty to a union.

States with right to work are doing much better in this recession than states with unions, because unions are killing the states they are in. A dirty little secret is that businesses are constrained by market forces on labor demand. They cannot drop their pay because they will not get the workers that they need.

The other dirty secret is the biggest beneficiaries of killing right to work laws, are the public union employees who get multiples of the minimum wage. In effect, they are voting for their own benefits. But who cuts their checks - the same people who are trying to get jobs but can't. So the public unions are cutting their own throats by opposition to right to work laws.

This is why Wisconsin did not have to lay off teachers - they were able to cut their massive costs sufficiently so that they could retain the ones they had. The unions were happy to screw the low level teachers (folks like me), so that the ones with seniority could keep their benefits. Who cares about the future so long as you get yours then. Rather then firing the ones who were costing the most, they would fire all the cheap and young ones.

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Low wages >>> No wages.

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Not so. Look at the dirty little secret about worker constraints. There are not enough skilled workers in America. America is starving for workers right now, but can't get them because of the red tape walls that government throws up to prevent them from doing so.

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Right now, the workforce is the same size it was in 1983.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 06:09:25 PM »

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I strongly suspect that the disagreement is rooted in economics. You reject what conservatives believe in economics, which is why you don't understand this point.

I could of course be wrong.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 11:26:45 PM »

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Valid if there is agreement on which macroeconomic theory. Unless Gustav or yourself is an Austrian, then this is not so, because I'm an Austrian myself.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 11:27:40 PM »

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I was thinking more along the lines of a Keynesian. Wink








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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 02:45:20 PM »

Yeah, I picked up on the sarcasm, Wink
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 03:43:26 PM »

Well, I presumed you were a Keynesian rather than an Austrian.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 03:57:50 PM »
« Edited: March 06, 2012, 04:00:20 PM by Ben Kenobi »

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Considering that many of the big names have passed on - that's really not a surprise.

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I'm lumping the Neo-Keynesians together, just mostly a broad definition.

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Well, that's Friedman et al, I'd consider you closer to Hayek than to Keynes.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 04:11:52 PM »

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I'd disagree with you here. A businessman needs to have practical knowledge about the economy in order to be an effective businessman. He should understand supply and demand. If he can accurately gage demand for things then he will make more money, if he can understand what people want and why.

I don't think the argument that 'businessmen know nothing about economics is very valid. Businessmen are much more sensitive to local realities even if they don't see the overall picture.

Did you mean to say macroeconomics?
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 04:19:48 PM »
« Edited: March 06, 2012, 04:32:06 PM by Ben Kenobi »

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Sure he does. How else does he ascertain market pricing?

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Both of which are dictated by the laws of supply and demand. Going market price isn't going to stay static.

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To make the most money, you want to be as close to the true market price as possible, and that's going to change. If your business is slow to react to these changes, then you are going to be losing money. I used to work for a store - my job was to overhaul their entire inventory system, to give them more centralized control over stock and real time updates.

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There are plenty of people out there who were as good at techonology as Bill Gates and Jobs. Gates and Jobs were successful because they combined the talent of designing quality computer equipment, and because they had successful marketing and distribution strategies.

They were able to better meet the needs of people and they adjusted their pricing to reflect it. MS and Apple have very different business models, Apple focusses on quality, princing things more highly but simplifying them so that the users do not have as much to learn. Gates did the other way - looking at price first, trying to reduce the costs of his components and becoming the overall market leader through sales volume and mass production.

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