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Author Topic: towards a spiritualist Mormonism/Mormon non-theism  (Read 1816 times)
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Miamiu1027
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« on: March 07, 2012, 05:10:34 pm »
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any suggestions?
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jmfcst
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 05:15:35 pm »
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can you expand the question, i don't know what you're talking about?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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Swing low, sweet chariot,
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 05:30:46 pm »
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my goal is to create a theology that, while upholding the spiritual and historical value of the Latter-Day Saint movement, comes to terms with the untenable nature of claims such as continuing revelation through prophets, historicity of the Nephites and Lamanites, admits the intellectual dishonesty of Mormon archaeology and other scholarship, and so forth.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 05:52:48 pm »
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Well, then due to its intellectual dishonesty, as well as the racist statements from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young...why don't you just reject it outright and start over?

I warned you beforehand not to approach Mormonism using their brain washing techniques, the very same techniques I have seen used by other cultsÖor do you think itís just a coincidence they asked you to pray to God if Mormonism was true?  They asked you to do that because that is how they are taught to present Mormonism to people.  They find someone hungry for God, ask them to read their material, then ask them to pray and ask God if Mormonism is true.  

Itís a methodology that comes from directly from the leadership of the Mormon church, which is why you were instructed to do so by the missionaries who approached you.  And I can guarantee you if you asked anyone who converted to Mormonism as an adult, youíll find they were asked to do the same thing.
 
Why donít you instead check the book of Acts to see how the Apostles presented the gospel to people?  The Apostles NEVER employed brain-washing techniques on potential converts.


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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 06:03:59 pm »
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correction, it's a methodology that not only comes from the LDS leadership, it comes directly from the book of Mormon:

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

Moroni 10:4

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 06:37:27 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 06:34:25 pm »
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the bible never asks someone to pray for truth, even though it says the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.  Instead, it claims the measure of truth is the Word of God:

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Therefore, if the Christian God is talking to you through prayer, it will be speaking in accord with scripture.

Could you imagine someone asking you to pray to God if adultery was ok?!  No.  Why not?  Because adultery clearly violates the scripture.  It wouldn't matter what you claim was the answer given to you in prayer, if the message in prayer came from the same spirit responsible for scripture, then it will be in agreement with scripture, which is why the Apostles attempted to win converts by simply presenting the gospel as it aligned to scripture.

So, if the book of Mormon is the true Christianity, then it should align with the both the OT and NT, or at least the OT (if the book of Mormon declares superiority over the NT).  But we know that is not the case because Mormon doctrine of the origin of God is completely contrary to both the OT and NT.


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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Tidewater_Wave
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 08:58:02 pm »
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the bible never asks someone to pray for truth, even though it says the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.  Instead, it claims the measure of truth is the Word of God:

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Therefore, if the Christian God is talking to you through prayer, it will be speaking in accord with scripture.

Could you imagine someone asking you to pray to God if adultery was ok?!  No.  Why not?  Because adultery clearly violates the scripture.  It wouldn't matter what you claim was the answer given to you in prayer, if the message in prayer came from the same spirit responsible for scripture, then it will be in agreement with scripture, which is why the Apostles attempted to win converts by simply presenting the gospel as it aligned to scripture.

So, if the book of Mormon is the true Christianity, then it should align with the both the OT and NT, or at least the OT (if the book of Mormon declares superiority over the NT).  But we know that is not the case because Mormon doctrine of the origin of God is completely contrary to both the OT and NT.




And just what is the word of God?
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 09:21:19 am »
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the bible never asks someone to pray for truth, even though it says the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.  Instead, it claims the measure of truth is the Word of God:

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Therefore, if the Christian God is talking to you through prayer, it will be speaking in accord with scripture.

Could you imagine someone asking you to pray to God if adultery was ok?!  No.  Why not?  Because adultery clearly violates the scripture.  It wouldn't matter what you claim was the answer given to you in prayer, if the message in prayer came from the same spirit responsible for scripture, then it will be in agreement with scripture, which is why the Apostles attempted to win converts by simply presenting the gospel as it aligned to scripture.

So, if the book of Mormon is the true Christianity, then it should align with the both the OT and NT, or at least the OT (if the book of Mormon declares superiority over the NT).  But we know that is not the case because Mormon doctrine of the origin of God is completely contrary to both the OT and NT.




And just what is the word of God?

the Book of Mormon is the word of God, revealed to man after He re-established communication with the human race through the prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 10:33:39 am »
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the Book of Mormon is the word of God, revealed to man after He re-established communication with the human race through the prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.

when did this supposed lapse in communication begin, exactly?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 11:48:34 am »
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the Book of Mormon is the word of God, revealed to man after He re-established communication with the human race through the prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.

when did this supposed lapse in communication begin, exactly?

after the Lamanites killed off the last of the Nephites, 385AD.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 12:10:02 pm »
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after the Lamanites killed off the last of the Nephites, 385AD.

is it my imagination, or did you just completely contradict yourself?...

my goal is to create a theology that, while upholding the spiritual and historical value of the Latter-Day Saint movement, comes to terms with the untenable nature of claims such as continuing revelation through prophets, historicity of the Nephites and Lamanites, admits the intellectual dishonesty of Mormon archaeology and other scholarship, and so forth.
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 02:02:21 pm »
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I was reporting from the annals of Mormon theology, not necessarily from personal belief.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 02:14:29 pm »
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I was reporting from the annals of Mormon theology, not necessarily from personal belief.

you're killing me
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 02:19:34 pm »
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"that's a shame."  -Jerry Seinfeld
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 02:11:41 am »
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What is it specifically about Mormonism that appeals to you, Tweed?

Not trying to be disputatious; I'm genuinely curious.
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His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 08:02:54 am »
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Mormons have quite a bit going for them. They place an emphasis on education you don't see in many conservative Christian circles, they are typically fairly cultured, and they have a fascinating history. That sense of unity in being "apart" appeals to a lot of people. I've known plenty of Mormons who have stayed LDS for the cultural aspects, but aren't believers in the religious system. It's fairly common actually.

Of course tolerance in every group always has its limits, and Mormons are no exception. I wouldn't recommend anyone become a Mormon because I think it's a false religion, but aside from that I think anyone who is consciously going into the LDS church with the goal of reforming it or openly maintaining non-belief would find themselves extremely disappointed.



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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 01:33:07 pm »
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Actually, the continuing revelation thing is one of the more attractive tenets of Mormonism.  The ability to override your previous revelation as new information (from the Almighty or otherwise) comes in allows Mormonism a great deal more flexibility than other faiths.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 03:20:11 pm »
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Actually, the continuing revelation thing is one of the more attractive tenets of Mormonism.  The ability to override your previous revelation as new information (from the Almighty or otherwise) comes in allows Mormonism a great deal more flexibility than other faiths.

That flexibility may be convenient, but I do not find it attractive.
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My ballot:
Ervin(I) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 05:21:00 pm »
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Actually, the continuing revelation thing is one of the more attractive tenets of Mormonism.  The ability to override your previous revelation as new information (from the Almighty or otherwise) comes in allows Mormonism a great deal more flexibility than other faiths.

That flexibility may be convenient, but I do not find it attractive.

not to mention that continued revelation (changing of stuff) within the church age is contrary to scripture:

Jude 1:3  "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 06:24:49 pm »
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Actually, the continuing revelation thing is one of the more attractive tenets of Mormonism.  The ability to override your previous revelation as new information (from the Almighty or otherwise) comes in allows Mormonism a great deal more flexibility than other faiths.

That flexibility may be convenient, but I do not find it attractive.

not to mention that continued revelation (changing of stuff) within the church age is contrary to scripture:

Jude 1:3  "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."

Is is telling that your theology requires that fixed and unchanging doctrine begins only once the Church Age arrived.
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My ballot:
Ervin(I) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2012, 06:28:02 pm »
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Is is telling that your theology requires that fixed and unchanging doctrine begins only once the Church Age arrived.

the establishment of the New Covenant marked the Church Age arrival, so the rules of the New Covenant were set into place at its inception and are unchangeable as long as the New Covenant is in effect.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 06:35:08 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2012, 06:48:03 pm »
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Is is telling that your theology requires that fixed and unchanging doctrine begins only once the Church Age arrived.

the establishment of the New Covenant marked the Church Age arrival, so the rules of the New Covenant were set into place at its inception and are unchangeable as long as the New Covenant is in effect.

So the rules are irrevocable until they are revoked?  Not that I believe in Mormonism in the least, but by what standard do you judge that the "translation" of the "golden plates" was not a valid marker for the end of the Church Age and the start of ..., ..., of the Saint Age I'll call it for the lack of any better term.
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My ballot:
Ervin(I) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2012, 12:07:39 pm »
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Yeah it allows for pretty convenient flip-flopping akin to Harold Camping. At least the Catholic Church isn't as prone to extreme changes, even if this means that they're always about three centuries behind.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2012, 02:14:30 pm »
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I am starting an independent Latter-Day Saint movement.  This movement is unaffiliated with the LDS Church.  We call ourselves "Mormon Spiritualists" or alternatively, "Latter-Day Saint non-theists".  To get the movement off the ground, I am seeking a high-profile defector/convert from the LDS Church.  If Mr. Romney were to join our movement we would experience a beneficial surge in media attention.  In order to incentivize Mr. Romney's conversion, I, as de facto leader of the Independent Mormon movement, am willing to offer him a special 5% tithing rate over the next five years, before it reverts back to the normal 10% rate.  Mr. Romney currently pays 10% to the LDS Church; he would have saved over a million dollars had he theoretically been a part of our movement last year (before factoring in tax deduction).

I understand that the Governor is a busy man, but please raise this issue to him at his earliest convenience.  If he declines to join, hasten to notify us so we can move on to seeking other high-profile LDS defectors, such as the Udall family.  If he would like more information, he (or someone on his behalf) should not hesitate to contact me by replying to this e-mail, or calling me at (631) 487-0523.

Thank you and God Bless,
David J Hanover.
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2012, 04:42:33 pm »
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Sorry, let me clarify. What I'm wondering is what precisely makes this Mormon? Is it like postmodern religion that happens to be 'Mormon-flavored' culturally rather than Christian?
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A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

Nathan-land.  As much fun as watching paint dry... literally.
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