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Author Topic: Black Clergy Group to Demand Romney Renounce Mormonism  (Read 2043 times)
IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2012, 11:45:28 am »
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?  I'd say so.

That may be what they call themselves. Doesn't make them Christian.

I could found a church and call it the Church of Christ - would that make it so?
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Pope Kalwejt I
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2012, 11:48:39 am »
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?  I'd say so.

That may be what they call themselves. Doesn't make them Christian.

I could found a church and call it the Church of Christ - would that make it so?

All depends on how are we going to define "Christianity".

Mormons are monotheists. They do believe in Jesus Christ as the literal firstborn Son of God and Messiah, etc.

They do reject things like Holy Trinity, but some Christian groups does as well.
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2012, 12:17:57 pm »
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As a liberal I have no problem with Mormonism even if it seems cranky and heretical to me. I have a problem with religion in politics when people shamelessly exploit it in an 'Believe it or burn' mode on politics.

Anyone who votes for President Obama because Mitt Romney is a Mormon or because Rick Santorum is a Catholic votes for the President for the wrong reasons. We need to ask what is good for America instead of what is comfortable for our view of the world. Now if someone votes for President Obama because either Mitt Romney or Rick Santorum offers no viable solutions, then one has a valid cause for voting for the President.

Of course I would never vote for a $cientologist (a fundamentally dishonest world-view), let alone a Satanist.

So if a Mormon were a nominee and you believed they were the best person and the most qualified to be President, you would vote for them even though you believed their faith to be cranky and heretical?

A suitable politician must show competence if an incumbent; a series of offices means nothing if one is a pathological liar, contradicts himself frequently,  has a history of corruption, or shows despotic tendencies, or otherwise shows himself unfit for the office  I wouldn't vote for any politician who puts the promotion of his religious views over all other matters of public policy. 

I'm not sure that anyone can quite say what makes the "better person" and that anything in particular makes one more qualified. A record of solid achievements for an incumbents Could I vote for Harry Reid? Sure. He is a Mormon. Character trumps creed, and someone who touts his creed had better live up to the benign parts of that creed.

For most of us it comes down to ideological concord with us -- right?
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IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2012, 12:22:43 pm »
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They do reject things like Holy Trinity, but some Christian groups does as well.

So does Islam FWIW.

Believe in the Holy Trinity - you're Christian. Reject it, and you're not.

Mormons may believe they are Christian, but insofar as they reject the Trinity they are just one of many splinter groups that have done the same thing over the ages.
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2012, 12:31:36 pm »
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?  I'd say so.

That may be what they call themselves. Doesn't make them Christian.

I could found a church and call it the Church of Christ - would that make it so?

All depends on how are we going to define "Christianity".

Mormons are monotheists. They do believe in Jesus Christ as the literal firstborn Son of God and Messiah, etc.

They do reject things like Holy Trinity, but some Christian groups does as well.

Jews accept the ethical tenets of Christianity but reject Jesus as irrelevant or heretical -- let alone any compartmentalization of God in any Trinity. They are unambiguous monotheists.  But can I vote for a Jew? Sure. I have done so many times.

Muslims accept the validity of the Ministry of Jesus and that He was born of a virgin. But Jesus to them was definitely not the Son of God and did not die on the Cross. To Muslims Jesus is one of the greatest Prophets of God... but like Jews, Muslims are strict monotheists. I have never had a chance to vote for a Muslim. Maybe if I lived in Dearborn, Michigan...

Mormonism is a Christian heresy for adding the Book of Mormon to its canon. But that said, Christianity is a Jewish heresy and Islam is a Christian heresy.

  
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« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2012, 12:44:59 pm »
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The cause is never just and right when those throwing the stones are doing so as a result of gross misunderstanding and complete ignorance. 

You do realize that an election is all about politics and rarely about justice, don't you?

And if you don't realize that, why haven't you been full of outrage over the deceptive attack ads that Restore Mitt's America's Future puts out?

It is never, ever appropriate for a Christian to demand that another Christian renounce his faith.  Mormons have not made demands that others renounce their faith.

Let me make this clear.  Mitt Romney is not going to renounce his faith, now not, not ever, just because some ill informed, radical evangelical preacher makes some stupid, ridiculous demand.

Forget it. 

The best thing Romney can do is to completely ignore this postulating, presumptuous, pompous preacher.

Oh I agree that for Romney to change from being a Mormon to be a more traditional Christian for political reasons would be wrong both ethically and politically.  If he were a better candidate, it wouldn't matter that there are blocks of voters who won't vote for him for that reason, but he's not.  His appeal is mainly to groups that can be expected to vote Republican in the general election no matter who the nominee is, and he has not shown much ability this cycle to go beyond that core support.  He's the richer candidate, and that's been the secret to his success so far, but he won't have a financial advantage against Obama.

But since you ignored my question other than to replace my descriptive name of its only purpose with its official name, let me repeat it: Why haven't you been full of outrage over the deceptive attack ads that Restore Mitt's Future puts out?
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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2012, 01:28:00 pm »
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Mormonism is a Christian heresy for adding the Book of Mormon to its canon. But that said, Christianity is a Jewish heresy and Islam is a Christian heresy.

Islam is a Christian-Jewish heresy, if you want to go that way.

And if you really want to follow that line of reasoning, then every Christian group or movement is a heresy, except of an orginal group.
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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2012, 01:40:36 pm »
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They do reject things like Holy Trinity, but some Christian groups does as well.

So does Islam FWIW.

Believe in the Holy Trinity - you're Christian. Reject it, and you're not.

Mormons may believe they are Christian, but insofar as they reject the Trinity they are just one of many splinter groups that have done the same thing over the ages.

So do some other churches, Unitarians, for example.  Also, many Protestant denominations are wishy-washy on it.
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2012, 01:41:56 pm »
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Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2012, 01:50:22 pm »
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Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?

No, but Mormons are.

It can easily be argued that Mormons are not Trinitarians or "orthodox," with a small "o."  They are closer to it than most non-Trinitarian Christian groups.
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2012, 02:18:41 pm »
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Mormonism is a Christian heresy for adding the Book of Mormon to its canon. But that said, Christianity is a Jewish heresy and Islam is a Christian heresy.

Islam is a Christian-Jewish heresy, if you want to go that way.

And if you really want to follow that line of reasoning, then every Christian group or movement is a heresy, except of an original group.

Jan Huss and Martin Luther both sought not so much to innovate as schismatics but instead to purify the Catholic Church of its then-pervasive corruption. The dirty little secret was that almost eve4rything about medieval Europe was terribly corrupt, including the Catholic Church which had to make peace with the horrible economic and political order characteristic of feudalism.  The Anglican Church originated to justify the deeds of the horrible Henry VIII. 
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IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2012, 02:41:08 pm »
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So do some other churches, Unitarians, for example.

And Unitarians aren't Christian either. That was easy.
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IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2012, 02:42:53 pm »
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Jan Huss and Martin Luther both sought not so much to innovate as schismatics but instead to purify the Catholic Church of its then-pervasive corruption

Which is why they denied things like confession, the Lord's supper, tore books out of the bible, etc.

Seems like pure innovation to me.

Luther wanted to get married to this hot chick who he liked, was a priest so he came up with this new idea called Lutheranism that, oddly enough, permitted him to get married to hot chick that he liked.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 02:44:43 pm by Ben Kenobi »Logged

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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2012, 02:45:56 pm »
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FRIENDLY MOD WARNING: please keep discussion related to the thread topic specifically. If you want to debate whether Mormonism is Christian or not, please do so on the religion and philosophy board.
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« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2012, 02:46:52 pm »
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Mormonism fails the Nicene Creed test. Examples:

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We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

Mormons believe God was once a man on a planet like our own, and thus not "maker of all that is seen and unseen".

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We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made

This is most certainly not in accordance with the Mormon view of the Trinity, and they most certainly don't believe Jesus is the only Son of God, they basically believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.

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He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

Definitely doesn't jive with the whole becoming gods and ruling your own planet thing.
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IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2012, 02:47:11 pm »
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Might as well move this whole topic there.
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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2012, 03:10:33 pm »
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Might as well move this whole topic there.

I concur.
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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2012, 03:16:40 pm »
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Jan Huss and Martin Luther both sought not so much to innovate as schismatics but instead to purify the Catholic Church of its then-pervasive corruption

Which is why they denied things like confession, the Lord's supper, tore books out of the bible, etc.

Seems like pure innovation to me.

Luther wanted to get married to this hot chick who he liked, was a priest so he came up with this new idea called Lutheranism that, oddly enough, permitted him to get married to hot chick that he liked.

Luther didn't meet Katharina von Bora until 1523, two years after the Diet of Worms. If you want a clearer example of somebody who had entirely concupiscent reasons for starting a Protestant denomination, there's a great big honking example right at the start of my own church. A lot of Anglican theology is actually about the works of God in bringing good out of evil, because we're entirely aware of how sordid our roots are.
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His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2012, 03:24:30 pm »
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Well in my defense Bacon King, it was not meant to be a thread about religion, but rather about politics. It just "evolved."  Tongue
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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2012, 05:25:33 pm »
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Why haven't you been full of outrage over the deceptive attack ads that Restore Mitt's Future puts out?

Nobody in this campaign has been a bigger victim of deceptive attack ads and deceptive, false, and vicious attacks and commentary than Mitt Romney, and no faith has been so viciously attacked as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints of which Romney is a member.  

Take a look at the vicious diatribes in this thread for example.  This thread has deteriorated into nothing more than ignorance, intolerance, and Mormon bashing.

Let them play their little game.  Ultimately, it will get them nowhere, let me assure you.
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« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2012, 09:41:15 pm »
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Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?

No, but Mormons are.

How are Mormons a democracy?
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« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2012, 07:40:09 pm »
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Wait, you were serious?
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King
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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2012, 08:14:02 pm »
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Sarah Palin's books probably mention Jesus 3000 times, but I don't think Going Rogue should be added to the New Testament.
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« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2012, 07:31:39 pm »
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I find it ridiculous how easily my faith (Mormonism) is made fun of. I like Muslims, so I won't use them as a "would you make fun of these guys" analogy, but a good comparison could be made with say, the Lutherans or the Catholics. Would anyone make fun of them as much as Mormons are mocked? I think not.

As for this specific situation, I think he's just expressing racial/evangelical animus towards Romney, and this isn't a serious demand.
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« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2012, 10:17:44 pm »
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I'm with PioneerProgress on the anti-Mormon sentiment being unjustified and kind of bizarre.

Believe in the Holy Trinity - you're Christian. Reject it, and you're not.

Mormons may believe they are Christian, but insofar as they reject the Trinity they are just one of many splinter groups that have done the same thing over the ages.

It seems to me that any definition of "Christian" that excludes the Arians is by definition too narrow. Citing the Nicene Creed as a test of Christianity also seems strange; it's not as though the Nicene Creed was created with Christianity.
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