Does God Exist?

[Tidewater_Wave]

Then in that case the universe would be a God. It doesn't necessarily have to be a deity. By universe do you mean all that is?

err...so, if my very not-sentient coffee mug was a causeless entity, it would definitionally be God?  This is just not what I think people mean when they say "God"

Yes the presence of God has been highly exaggerated throughout history.

[Tidewater_Wave]

Maybe. To give a flat out yes or no would be rather arrogant, considering the absolute lack of tangible proof on either side of the argument.

This is along the lines of what I've been saying. It's not possible for the finite to completely grasp the infinite in terms of understanding. Also, there is the flying spaghetti monster argument that scholars throw out there in order to combat the argument that we can't disprove God's existence. I find the first mover argument to be better though if one is arguing for God's existence. I mean they're right we can't disprove the existence of a flying spaghetti monster just because we haven't seen one, but then I raise that a flying spaghetti monster does not have to exist. Something that we know to be a first cause or first essence to quote Aquinas is what we know to be God. Shadows of this can be seen in deism where God started the universe as if winding up a clock and letting it run on its own. There are alot of theories out there but "matter just coming into existence on its own for no reason" is likely the worst theory I've ever heard or read. We'll never prove or disprove God's existence so the heated arguments over it are trivial.

[Ѕenator Αverroës]

There are alot of theories out there but "matter just coming into existence on its own for no reason" is likely the worst theory I've ever heard or read.

Why?

[Chareth Cutestory]

Definitely not. And I personally find more arrogance in the assertion that those who don't believe in God are burdened with proving its nonexistence than I do in claiming it doesn't exist. That makes absolutely no logical sense. Are we supposed to believe in anything until we can prove it doesn't exist? Can anyone here personally prove to me right now that there aren't invisible, all-powerful elves living in trees? If not, then we must respect the belief in them, right? No. Nonsense doesn't just get respect because it's widely accepted nonsense.

God is a way to mask the uneasiness about not being all-knowing ourselves. If I don't know how something happened billions of years ago, I'm not going to freak out and demand to know. I can live with being in the dark about something literally countless human generations ago. Human knowledge of the world is finite. I can also live with human life being finite. And I personally believe that gives me a better respect for the power of our short opportunity to take advantage of the wonder of our real world.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Your argument is problematic because we should, in fact, respect animistic beliefs.

[Chareth Cutestory]

Your argument is problematic because we should, in fact, respect animistic beliefs.

I agree, but animism can be respected without having to accept the entire overlying religious belief system. And I don't think of it as a system of beliefs in the same league as religion regardless of many integrating its general philosophy.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Your argument is problematic because we should, in fact, respect animistic beliefs.

I agree, but animism can be respected without having to accept the entire overlying religious belief system. And I don't think of it as a system of beliefs in the same league as religion regardless of many integrating its general philosophy.

Hmm. This honestly wasn't the sort of response that I was expecting. I understand perfectly, though I don't share, your opinions relating to the distinction you're making between the basic tenets of a stance on the world and the more specific socially-produced tenets of a particular religion but I'm honestly a little confused as to why things like, say, Shinto or African or South American folk beliefs would be more respectable than more 'conventionally' (i.e. westernly) theistic systems.

[Chareth Cutestory]

Your argument is problematic because we should, in fact, respect animistic beliefs.

I agree, but animism can be respected without having to accept the entire overlying religious belief system. And I don't think of it as a system of beliefs in the same league as religion regardless of many integrating its general philosophy.

Hmm. This honestly wasn't the sort of response that I was expecting. I understand perfectly, though I don't share, your opinions relating to the distinction you're making between the basic tenets of a stance on the world and the more specific socially-produced tenets of a particular religion but I'm honestly a little confused as to why things like, say, Shinto or African or South American folk beliefs would be more respectable than more 'conventionally' (i.e. westernly) theistic systems.

What I'm looking mostly at as the acceptable and respectable beliefs of animism are simply the basic concepts that people have a deeper connection with the world than there simply being people on one level and then all else. The details and more religiously motivated explanations are more or less just as nonsensical as the religions themselves. At least personally, I view the concept of animism as potentially being rooted in little-explored scientific or psychological arenas rather than simply a religious concept of explaining an unknown. There are definite traits in animals and their relationships with humans that suggest a deeper connection on some level. I don't necessarily believe in the characterization of that being a result of souls, but there is something to it. It was rooted in evidence and then supported rather than most religions being created and then "proven" in a backwards way devoid of reason or objectivity.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Makes sense, and it's an interesting point of view. Although of course we're never going to see eye-to-eye on the aetiology of the 'higher religions', so-called.

[Tidewater_Wave]

There are alot of theories out there but "matter just coming into existence on its own for no reason" is likely the worst theory I've ever heard or read.

Why?

Where there is a design, there is a designer. I've never seen something just spring out of nowhere.

[Ѕenator Αverroës]

There are alot of theories out there but "matter just coming into existence on its own for no reason" is likely the worst theory I've ever heard or read.

Why?

Where there is a design, there is a designer. I've never seen something just spring out of nowhere.

Ever heard of 'begging the question'?

[Tidewater_Wave]

There are alot of theories out there but "matter just coming into existence on its own for no reason" is likely the worst theory I've ever heard or read.

Why?

Where there is a design, there is a designer. I've never seen something just spring out of nowhere.

Ever heard of 'begging the question'?

Yes and no one has to agree with me that there is a God. I've stated before that I'm not advocating the angry YHWH from the Old Testament or any particular deity. It's great to wonder. With as complex as our universe is, I find it very hard to believe that we're alone.

[Jacobtm]

God, Zeus, Shiva, Thor, Quetzcoatl, Tlaloc, The Staff God, etc. are all just made up stories.

Asking if God exists is like asking if Mordor exists.

[asexual trans victimologist]

God, Zeus, Shiva, Thor, Quetzcoatl, Tlaloc, The Staff God, etc. are all just made up stories.

Asking if God exists is like asking if Mordor exists.

It's actually in philosophical terms more like asking if other minds, the universe external to the confines of one's skull, or the past exist, but whatever, keep living the smug lyfe.

[Tik]

It doesn't matter and you will never get anywhere thinking about it, as entertaining as it is. Whether or not god or even the universe outside of my consciousness exists has no tangible effect on my desire for a satisfying blip of sentience.

[Tidewater_Wave]

It doesn't matter and you will never get anywhere thinking about it, as entertaining as it is. Whether or not god or even the universe outside of my consciousness exists has no tangible effect on my desire for a satisfying blip of sentience.

We're getting into Cartesian Dualism now where evil demons play tricks on us to make us think we're really real.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

There are alot of theories out there but "matter just coming into existence on its own for no reason" is likely the worst theory I've ever heard or read.

Why?

Where there is a design, there is a designer. I've never seen something just spring out of nowhere.

This is special pleading, and I have no idea what your "highly exaggerated" post re: god is intended to mean.  People are not "exaggerating" god anymore than those who refer to "floods" as inundations of water are "exaggerating" the word because you prefer it was synonymous with "creek."

[dadge]

Can you give me the link to a good survey or surveys about *what* and *where* American Christians believe that God is?

Even though, like Richard Dawkins, I admit there's a small chance that there is a God, when you think about it, it really is very unlikely. What is he? A human? An ether? Where is he? When people pray, why do they look into the sky? Do they think he's on a cloud?

[asexual trans victimologist]

God is an uncreated Spirit without distinction on the basis of created material but since the human soul is made in the image of that Spirit God can be said to exhibit what we would recognize as person-like characteristics, though at a level vastly beyond what we can comprehend. God is not any more 'in' any given part of the physical universe than in any other part. People associate Heaven with the physical heavens (i.e. the sky) because the sheer scale and omnipresence of the sky reminds one of Godhead, not because it is where God is physically located.

This isn't to disparage actual sky-worship, necessarily. The worship of Munkh Khukh Tengri is a beautiful religion, actually, though it of course chooses to focus upon things less central to existence than Fall, Incarnation, Resurrection, and Redemption, and hence suffers slightly. (Universal Christianity syncretic with some localized folk animism is I think pretty much the perfect synthesis, all else being equal, of religious experience, but of course I'd think that, being an Episcopalian who studies Shinto...).

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

God is an uncreated Spirit without distinction on the basis of created material but since the human soul is made in the image of that Spirit God can be said to exhibit what we would recognize as person-like characteristics, though at a level vastly beyond what we can comprehend. God is not any more 'in' any given part of the physical universe than in any other part.

That's the claim, but how do you know it's true? What's the evidence?

[politicus]

God is an uncreated Spirit without distinction on the basis of created material but since the human soul is made in the image of that Spirit God can be said to exhibit what we would recognize as person-like characteristics, though at a level vastly beyond what we can comprehend. God is not any more 'in' any given part of the physical universe than in any other part.

That's the claim, but how do you know it's true? What's the evidence?

None. It's a matter of faith. Always has been, always will be. This thread is pointless, you can't discuss that particular question in any meaningfull way. But thanks to Nathan for a beautifull definition anyway.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

I believe in God because I can't imagine what life would be like without Him.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

I believe in God because I can't imagine what life would be like without Him.

It's largely the same, except you get to sleep in on Sundays.

[So the Heroes Fall]

I believe in God because I can't imagine what life would be like without Him.

It's largely the same, except you get to sleep in on Sundays.

Because there are no churches with afternoon or evening services.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

I believe in God because I can't imagine what life would be like without Him.

It's largely the same, except you get to sleep in on Sundays.

Because there are no churches with afternoon or evening services.

Captain Obvious would like to tell you that you shouldn't take an obviously snarky comment literally.