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Author Topic: Causes of antiislamism in the West  (Read 5587 times)
Gustaf
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« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2012, 06:41:03 pm »
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I did find that Dearborn, Michigan had the most Muslims, by percent, among US cities, and in that city, according to Zogby, Muslims claim not to feel isolated.  In fact, more generally, Zogby states that "Unlike Muslims in Europe, American Muslims do not tend to feel marginalized..."   Pew research has similar findings.

That's mostly because Muslim immigrants to the United States are much richer than European Muslims.

And why are they richer?
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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2012, 09:31:31 pm »
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I did find that Dearborn, Michigan had the most Muslims, by percent, among US cities, and in that city, according to Zogby, Muslims claim not to feel isolated.  In fact, more generally, Zogby states that "Unlike Muslims in Europe, American Muslims do not tend to feel marginalized..."   Pew research has similar findings.

That's mostly because Muslim immigrants to the United States are much richer than European Muslims.

And why are they richer?

Countries of origin, I thought?

EDIT: The vast majority of Muslim-Americans I've actually known were extremely secular, but that's selection bias as I don't normally talk to people that are really religious.  One of my best friends is an ex-Muslim atheist and first generation immigrant from Syria, and I've heard her say things about Islam that are more negative than most ultra-right wing Islamophobes.
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« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2012, 12:47:51 am »
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It's generalized hatred of a vague other, since most people haven't ever seen one of them in the flesh.
Sorry, but I'm a bit an antiislamist after I saw this:
http://ottenki-serogo.livejournal.com/191194.html
IN A F^^^KING CHRISTIAN CITY.


Moscow is Christian in the same way that Stockholm is Christian (hint: they're both not Christian).
They are culturally and historically Christian cities. Which is what matters most in this context.

Sorry but I'm a bit of an anti-Christian after seeing this:


IN A F^^KING PAGAN CITY!

Historically, it does not matter what Moscow and Stockholm were. It matters that we're supposed to be living in secular, tolerant societies that allow people to peaceably worship whoever they want in public. If you have a problem with this, you're a probably a bigot or a fundamentalist.
"Secular, tolerant society" is one of the sweet lies that are told us by the socialists. Russia for Russians, Moscow for Moscowits, it is all about. If you do not accept OUR traditions and OUR habits, go back into your Dagestan/Chechnya/whatever-Stan.
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« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2012, 01:20:08 am »
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It's generalized hatred of a vague other, since most people haven't ever seen one of them in the flesh.
Sorry, but I'm a bit an antiislamist after I saw this:
http://ottenki-serogo.livejournal.com/191194.html
IN A F^^^KING CHRISTIAN CITY.


Moscow is Christian in the same way that Stockholm is Christian (hint: they're both not Christian).
They are culturally and historically Christian cities. Which is what matters most in this context.

Sorry but I'm a bit of an anti-Christian after seeing this:


IN A F^^KING PAGAN CITY!

Historically, it does not matter what Moscow and Stockholm were. It matters that we're supposed to be living in secular, tolerant societies that allow people to peaceably worship whoever they want in public. If you have a problem with this, you're a probably a bigot or a fundamentalist.
"Secular, tolerant society" is one of the sweet lies that are told us by the socialists. Russia for Russians, Moscow for Moscowits, it is all about. If you do not accept OUR traditions and OUR habits, go back into your Dagestan/Chechnya/whatever-Stan.

Dagestanis and Chechens are also Russians, you see, to say nothing of Tatars, Buryats, Kalmyks, Tuvans, Bashkirs, Circassians, Slavic converts to Islam or Buddhism, Tatar or whatever converts to Christianity, diehards from Birobidzhan, et hoc genus omne, and Moscow is the capital of the Russian Federation, not some fictional 'Christian Russia' that elides everything south or east of Don/Volga. If you didn't want Russia and its capital to be diverse then you shouldn't have expanded out of Muscovy in the first place.
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« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2012, 01:35:29 am »
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Main slogan of the Russian Nationalists is now "Stop feeding Caucasus!" And I support it. National Democratic Alliance got a nice plan about reforming Russian Federation - secede money-sucking Caucasus, build a wall on a border with it,  turn Russia into a confederation of 7 Russian Republics. But they also recognize the co-existence of Tatars, Yakuts, Kalmyks and other. And they support stronger regulation of immigration from Asia.
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« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2012, 01:39:22 am »
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I don't think you can compare Moscow and Stockholm being Christian to Athens being pagan, that'd be more like if someone tried to argue that Istanbul or most of Cairo were Christian cities. You'd still have the vast majority of people there identifying as Christian and all. Not that I know if what was posted as really objectionable since I can't read Russian, and Pingvin's most recent post is probably the most fascist thing posted on the forum all year.
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« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2012, 01:43:22 am »
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So if the Volga and Asian ethnicities are acceptable, why does one need to kick the Caucasus out? If it's purely economic reasons that seems like a puerile reason to break up one's country and if it's for cultural reasons that seems extremely discriminatory and sketchy.

I don't see what the use of the other part of the idea is. My ancestors on the side that my family name derives from were partly Litvak Jews, partly Great Russians from the area of Lake Peipus, partly Great Russians from the area between the Volga and the Urals, and partly Tartars, so I'm reasonably familiar with the layout of Russia ethnically and culturally, and I just don't see how the '7 Russian Republics' would be divied up.
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« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2012, 01:50:21 am »
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So if the Volga and Asian ethnicities are acceptable, why does one need to kick the Caucasus out? If it's purely economic reasons that seems like a puerile reason to break up one's country and if it's for cultural reasons that seems extremely discriminatory and sketchy.

I don't see what the use of the other part of the idea is. My ancestors on the side that my family name derives from were partly Litvak Jews, partly Great Russians from the area of Lake Peipus, partly Great Russians from the area between the Volga and the Urals, and partly Tartars, so I'm reasonably familiar with the layout of Russia ethnically and culturally, and I just don't see how the '7 Russian Republics' would be divied up.

Is that even possible with the current population distribution? I was under the impression ethnic Russians have a majority basically everywhere except the Caucuses and some enclaves, I'm sure there's a map of this somewhere...
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« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2012, 01:55:02 am »
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So if the Volga and Asian ethnicities are acceptable, why does one need to kick the Caucasus out? If it's purely economic reasons that seems like a puerile reason to break up one's country and if it's for cultural reasons that seems extremely discriminatory and sketchy.

I don't see what the use of the other part of the idea is. My ancestors on the side that my family name derives from were partly Litvak Jews, partly Great Russians from the area of Lake Peipus, partly Great Russians from the area between the Volga and the Urals, and partly Tartars, so I'm reasonably familiar with the layout of Russia ethnically and culturally, and I just don't see how the '7 Russian Republics' would be divied up.

Is that even possible with the current population distribution? I was under the impression ethnic Russians have a majority basically everywhere except the Caucuses and some enclaves, I'm sure there's a map of this somewhere...

European Russia is pretty much all Great Russian outside, as you said, the Caucasus, with the parts along the Volga and Komi mostly being to the best of my knowledge a question of pluralities rather than majorities, be it for the Great Russians or the republic minorities. Siberia has of course a strip of Great Russians along the railways outside of which everything is native Siberian ethnicities or sparsely populated.

ETA: In the little clump of republics east of Moscow, Tatarstan and Chuvashia have majorities of their titular group, Mari El and Bashkortostan are about tied, and Mordovia and Udmurtia have Great Russian majorities. Komi is also majority Great Russian. Karelia is under ten per cent its titular group. The republics with clear majorities of their titular group or groups are, in descending order of concentration, Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Tuva, Kabardino-Balkaria, Chuvashia, North Ossetia-Alania, Kalmykia, Tatarstan, and Karachay-Cherkessia. Sakha is 49.9% Yakut. Mari El and Bashkortostan have no clear majority ethnic group. The majority Great Russian republics are, in descending order of concentration, Karelia, Khakassia, Buryatia, Komi, Adygea, Udmurtia, Altai, and Mordovia.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:00:04 am by Nathan »Logged

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« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2012, 01:58:05 am »
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Federal spending on the Northern Caucausus Federal District (2010 numbers):
Kabardino-Balkariya - 12900 roubles
Karachaevo-Cherkesia - 13600 roubles
Dagestan - 14800 roubles
Ingushetia - 27800 roubles
Northern Osetia - 12000 roubles
Stavropol (Note: Russian region included in the SKFO aganist people's will) 6000 roubles
Chechnya - 48200 roubles
Other regions (Note: median) - 5000 roubles.
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« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2012, 02:35:52 am »
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I did find that Dearborn, Michigan had the most Muslims, by percent, among US cities, and in that city, according to Zogby, Muslims claim not to feel isolated.  In fact, more generally, Zogby states that "Unlike Muslims in Europe, American Muslims do not tend to feel marginalized..."   Pew research has similar findings.

That's mostly because Muslim immigrants to the United States are much richer than European Muslims.

And why are they richer?

Countries of origin, I thought?

Not entirely. A Turk in the United States will generally be much richer than a Turk in Germany, because only skilled workers go from Turkey to the United States. The American supply of unskilled labor comes from parts southward and not from the Muslim world.
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« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2012, 05:56:27 am »
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I did find that Dearborn, Michigan had the most Muslims, by percent, among US cities, and in that city, according to Zogby, Muslims claim not to feel isolated.  In fact, more generally, Zogby states that "Unlike Muslims in Europe, American Muslims do not tend to feel marginalized..."   Pew research has similar findings.

That's mostly because Muslim immigrants to the United States are much richer than European Muslims.

And why are they richer?

Countries of origin, I thought?

Not entirely. A Turk in the United States will generally be much richer than a Turk in Germany, because only skilled workers go from Turkey to the United States. The American supply of unskilled labor comes from parts southward and not from the Muslim world.

So what you mean is that there is a selection bias going on - different groups of people go to different countries. That's probably true.

I've been thinking a bit more about the whole interaction with Muslims thing. In my high school class of about 27 people there were 3 Muslim kids. One Iranian guy who was very stereotypically Iranian - quite, career-focused and not allowed to have a girlfriend. One Bosnian girl who was very nice and whom of course no one thought of as Muslim since she was white (until she shocked everyone in religion class by quoting the Quran in Arabic). And then a Turkish guy. Who was reasonably nice and all (I remember watching Dr. Strangelove with him at my home once. He ate all my candy). He did say that he would never allow his wife to work and that he hated Jews and wanted to see all Jews dead. So that wasn't very nice. He also once attacked another kid in school and tried to strangle him (to be fair, the kid had said a racial slur, or so he claimed at least).

There was another Iranian guy in a parallell class who was an outspoken Nazi who supported the Holocaust. And I think a bunch of Iranian girls who were all working hard to be doctors.

Of course, my high school was a bit on the posh side - I think there only 2 violent incidents during my 3 years there and none of them were particularly serious or led to any real bodily harm.

I guess the point is that if one wanted to, it wasn't hard to find some negative traits there. And while there were plenty of perfectly native Swedish assholes to dislike as well, the dislikeable Muslims tended to be so due to things that were linked to their religion or culture (anti-semitism, conservative views on women). Of course, once a negative stereotype is established it tends to become self-reinforcing. The Turkish guy was a lot more outspoken in his identity as a Muslim and probably affected most people in the class more in their impression of Muslims than the nice Bosnian girl.
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« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2012, 11:44:25 am »
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LOL.  "Dees my freend Mahir.  He very nice guy.  Well, he don't like wife work, or show herself in public and he want all Jews dead, but otherwise he very nice guy.  Say hello Mahir."
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« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2012, 12:07:34 pm »
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I don't think you can compare Moscow and Stockholm being Christian to Athens being pagan, that'd be more like if someone tried to argue that Istanbul or most of Cairo were Christian cities. You'd still have the vast majority of people there identifying as Christian and all. Not that I know if what was posted as really objectionable since I can't read Russian, and Pingvin's most recent post is probably the most fascist thing posted on the forum all year.

Well, neo-fascism's very popular in Russia AFAIK.
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« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2012, 05:36:59 pm »
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I don't think you can compare Moscow and Stockholm being Christian to Athens being pagan, that'd be more like if someone tried to argue that Istanbul or most of Cairo were Christian cities. You'd still have the vast majority of people there identifying as Christian and all. Not that I know if what was posted as really objectionable since I can't read Russian, and Pingvin's most recent post is probably the most fascist thing posted on the forum all year.

Well, neo-fascism's very popular in Russia AFAIK.

Yeah, the US State Department has this to say:

Quote
The U.S. Embassy Moscow and Consulates General continue to receive reports of U.S. citizens, often members of minority groups, victimized in violent attacks by “skinheads” or other extremists. Travelers are urged to exercise caution in areas frequented by such individuals and wherever large crowds have gathered. U.S. citizens most at risk are those of African, South Asian, or East Asian descent, or those who, because of their complexion, are perceived to be from the Caucasus region or the Middle East. These U.S. citizens are also at risk for harassment by police authorities.
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« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2012, 07:55:48 pm »
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Haha, yes, but most people obviously have had a lot of positive experiences with the majority community as well. In Stockholm (and here I am obviously exaggerating and generalizing quite a lot) most Muslim immigrants live in what are basically poor ghettos surrounding the city. These areas have nothing that would make anyone from the city ever go there. Since many are either old, young or unemployed not that many come into the city either. So, those you do see tend to very disproportionately be gangs of young men coming into town to have fun. And running into gangs of young men is often a negative experience.

So what you're saying is that most people don't have many positive experiences of Muslim 'immigrants' because mostly they don't have any actual experiences of them as anything other than 'people who are not like us'. Which isn't so far off Xahar's argument, really.

I think the difference is that what I'm talking about is linked to real problems. Immigrant groups that aren't living in isolated ghettos and don't have high unemployment rates naturally meet people in normal settings a lot more often.

It's always hard to have this kind of discussion without accusations of racism being thrown about, but I think there are a number of tangible problems with muslim immigration that contribute to islamophobia in Europe (and, no, it's not exclusively muslim immigration, it's just the main migration flows here happen to be from pre-dominantly muslim countries). That doesn't justify it or anything, but I do believe some of these root causes need to be adressed.

It's not so much that the main immigration flow came from Muslim countries, in fact outside a few countries it didn't, but Muslim have had a much lower intermarriage rate so while Yugoslavs, Italians and Finns has begun to disappear in the mass of the majority, Muslims has stayed distinct.
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« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2012, 02:47:04 am »
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Haha, yes, but most people obviously have had a lot of positive experiences with the majority community as well. In Stockholm (and here I am obviously exaggerating and generalizing quite a lot) most Muslim immigrants live in what are basically poor ghettos surrounding the city. These areas have nothing that would make anyone from the city ever go there. Since many are either old, young or unemployed not that many come into the city either. So, those you do see tend to very disproportionately be gangs of young men coming into town to have fun. And running into gangs of young men is often a negative experience.

So what you're saying is that most people don't have many positive experiences of Muslim 'immigrants' because mostly they don't have any actual experiences of them as anything other than 'people who are not like us'. Which isn't so far off Xahar's argument, really.

I think the difference is that what I'm talking about is linked to real problems. Immigrant groups that aren't living in isolated ghettos and don't have high unemployment rates naturally meet people in normal settings a lot more often.

It's always hard to have this kind of discussion without accusations of racism being thrown about, but I think there are a number of tangible problems with muslim immigration that contribute to islamophobia in Europe (and, no, it's not exclusively muslim immigration, it's just the main migration flows here happen to be from pre-dominantly muslim countries). That doesn't justify it or anything, but I do believe some of these root causes need to be adressed.

It's not so much that the main immigration flow came from Muslim countries, in fact outside a few countries it didn't, but Muslim have had a much lower intermarriage rate so while Yugoslavs, Italians and Finns has begun to disappear in the mass of the majority, Muslims has stayed distinct.

Well, I'm not really counting Scandinavian immigration because they're pretty much the same people - there is no issues with integration or anything there. And most other groups came in the past, so current immigration includes a lot of Muslims.
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« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2012, 03:44:49 am »
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Haha, yes, but most people obviously have had a lot of positive experiences with the majority community as well. In Stockholm (and here I am obviously exaggerating and generalizing quite a lot) most Muslim immigrants live in what are basically poor ghettos surrounding the city. These areas have nothing that would make anyone from the city ever go there. Since many are either old, young or unemployed not that many come into the city either. So, those you do see tend to very disproportionately be gangs of young men coming into town to have fun. And running into gangs of young men is often a negative experience.

So what you're saying is that most people don't have many positive experiences of Muslim 'immigrants' because mostly they don't have any actual experiences of them as anything other than 'people who are not like us'. Which isn't so far off Xahar's argument, really.

I think the difference is that what I'm talking about is linked to real problems. Immigrant groups that aren't living in isolated ghettos and don't have high unemployment rates naturally meet people in normal settings a lot more often.

It's always hard to have this kind of discussion without accusations of racism being thrown about, but I think there are a number of tangible problems with muslim immigration that contribute to islamophobia in Europe (and, no, it's not exclusively muslim immigration, it's just the main migration flows here happen to be from pre-dominantly muslim countries). That doesn't justify it or anything, but I do believe some of these root causes need to be adressed.

It's not so much that the main immigration flow came from Muslim countries, in fact outside a few countries it didn't, but Muslim have had a much lower intermarriage rate so while Yugoslavs, Italians and Finns has begun to disappear in the mass of the majority, Muslims has stayed distinct.

Well, I'm not really counting Scandinavian immigration because they're pretty much the same people - there is no issues with integration or anything there. And most other groups came in the past, so current immigration includes a lot of Muslims.

The problem is that you look at Sweden as the example of migration. In Europe Yugoslavs and Italians came at the same time as the Turks, Algerian, Pakistanis and Moroccans the  four traditional Muslim immigration groups. These latter groups has shown themselves to be much harder to integrate than the former. If we look at the intermarriage rate for Yugoslavs it's several times higher (in Denmark 66% of Yugoslavs born in Denmark marry someone from another ethnic group) than for Turk (among Turks BID only 14% marry outside their ethnic group) or Pakistanis BID (with 18% it lies sligthly higher than the Turks)

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« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2012, 03:52:31 am »
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Haha, yes, but most people obviously have had a lot of positive experiences with the majority community as well. In Stockholm (and here I am obviously exaggerating and generalizing quite a lot) most Muslim immigrants live in what are basically poor ghettos surrounding the city. These areas have nothing that would make anyone from the city ever go there. Since many are either old, young or unemployed not that many come into the city either. So, those you do see tend to very disproportionately be gangs of young men coming into town to have fun. And running into gangs of young men is often a negative experience.

So what you're saying is that most people don't have many positive experiences of Muslim 'immigrants' because mostly they don't have any actual experiences of them as anything other than 'people who are not like us'. Which isn't so far off Xahar's argument, really.

I think the difference is that what I'm talking about is linked to real problems. Immigrant groups that aren't living in isolated ghettos and don't have high unemployment rates naturally meet people in normal settings a lot more often.

It's always hard to have this kind of discussion without accusations of racism being thrown about, but I think there are a number of tangible problems with muslim immigration that contribute to islamophobia in Europe (and, no, it's not exclusively muslim immigration, it's just the main migration flows here happen to be from pre-dominantly muslim countries). That doesn't justify it or anything, but I do believe some of these root causes need to be adressed.

It's not so much that the main immigration flow came from Muslim countries, in fact outside a few countries it didn't, but Muslim have had a much lower intermarriage rate so while Yugoslavs, Italians and Finns has begun to disappear in the mass of the majority, Muslims has stayed distinct.

Well, I'm not really counting Scandinavian immigration because they're pretty much the same people - there is no issues with integration or anything there. And most other groups came in the past, so current immigration includes a lot of Muslims.

The problem is that you look at Sweden as the example of migration. In Europe Yugoslavs and Italians came at the same time as the Turks, Algerian, Pakistanis and Moroccans the  four traditional Muslim immigration groups. These latter groups has shown themselves to be much harder to integrate than the former. If we look at the intermarriage rate for Yugoslavs it's several times higher (in Denmark 66% of Yugoslavs born in Denmark marry someone from another ethnic group) than for Turk (among Turks BID only 14% marry outside their ethnic group) or Pakistanis BID (with 18% it lies sligthly higher than the Turks)



It's true that I tend to think primarily of Sweden, I guess. Although, you're obviously picking specific countries as well, since your statement can hardly apply to Italy. Wink

Generally, I was talking more about people coming as immigrants now than the people who are currently in the country. And then I think it largely holds true that Muslims constitute a large part of that (again, discarding groups like Norwegians or American CEOs or Spanish graduate students and whatnot).
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« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2012, 04:31:03 am »
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Haha, yes, but most people obviously have had a lot of positive experiences with the majority community as well. In Stockholm (and here I am obviously exaggerating and generalizing quite a lot) most Muslim immigrants live in what are basically poor ghettos surrounding the city. These areas have nothing that would make anyone from the city ever go there. Since many are either old, young or unemployed not that many come into the city either. So, those you do see tend to very disproportionately be gangs of young men coming into town to have fun. And running into gangs of young men is often a negative experience.

So what you're saying is that most people don't have many positive experiences of Muslim 'immigrants' because mostly they don't have any actual experiences of them as anything other than 'people who are not like us'. Which isn't so far off Xahar's argument, really.

I think the difference is that what I'm talking about is linked to real problems. Immigrant groups that aren't living in isolated ghettos and don't have high unemployment rates naturally meet people in normal settings a lot more often.

It's always hard to have this kind of discussion without accusations of racism being thrown about, but I think there are a number of tangible problems with muslim immigration that contribute to islamophobia in Europe (and, no, it's not exclusively muslim immigration, it's just the main migration flows here happen to be from pre-dominantly muslim countries). That doesn't justify it or anything, but I do believe some of these root causes need to be adressed.

It's not so much that the main immigration flow came from Muslim countries, in fact outside a few countries it didn't, but Muslim have had a much lower intermarriage rate so while Yugoslavs, Italians and Finns has begun to disappear in the mass of the majority, Muslims has stayed distinct.

Well, I'm not really counting Scandinavian immigration because they're pretty much the same people - there is no issues with integration or anything there. And most other groups came in the past, so current immigration includes a lot of Muslims.

The problem is that you look at Sweden as the example of migration. In Europe Yugoslavs and Italians came at the same time as the Turks, Algerian, Pakistanis and Moroccans the  four traditional Muslim immigration groups. These latter groups has shown themselves to be much harder to integrate than the former. If we look at the intermarriage rate for Yugoslavs it's several times higher (in Denmark 66% of Yugoslavs born in Denmark marry someone from another ethnic group) than for Turk (among Turks BID only 14% marry outside their ethnic group) or Pakistanis BID (with 18% it lies sligthly higher than the Turks)



It's true that I tend to think primarily of Sweden, I guess. Although, you're obviously picking specific countries as well, since your statement can hardly apply to Italy. Wink

Generally, I was talking more about people coming as immigrants now than the people who are currently in the country. And then I think it largely holds true that Muslims constitute a large part of that (again, discarding groups like Norwegians or American CEOs or Spanish graduate students and whatnot).

Yes to some degree I agree with you and most of your earlier points, but I think that the primary problem isn't the new waves of immigrant, but that the earlier waves has stayed so distinct (and poor), that people talk about all Muslim as one group. The three biggest "immigration" groups as example in Denmark the last 10 years has been Iraqis, Poles and Germans (around 30 000 of each). The Iraqis as refugees and Germans and Poles as blue-collar workers (much as the earlier Turks). But it has not resulted in Poles and Germans being singled out (through Romanians a much smaller group have). Much of it is because many Danes have a Polish or German grandparent or great grandparent so there are a unwillingness to single these groups out, even after the crisis have begun and some employers has kept importing them even with rising unemployment among Danish blue-collar workers. If a lot of Danes had Middle Eastern grandparents, I think we would see a greater tolerance toward new immigration waves.
Of course it doesn't help that many Middle Eastern immigrants have social attitude which can mildly be described as disgusting from a European POV, and a willingness to be completely open about their disgusting attitudes.
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« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2012, 07:39:42 am »
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Wahabism.

The huge range of cultural difference within Islam stretching from Morocco to the Moluccas is being usurped by Saudi funded fundamentalist cultural bullsh-t that is seeping into settled communities in Europe. Indeed in Britain, it appears to be working it's way into Pakistani, Kashmi and Bengali communities (in their 3rd generation) in a way that it hasn't worked its way into their respective home countries. Afghanistan is a prime example of a Muslim country whose culture has been be overturned by an invasive ideology.

That ideology is so at odds with liberal democracy that it gets associated with all Muslims.

If you take a look at the Balkans; at the Albanians and Bosnians and Kosovans and other remnants of Ottoman Europe you have a completely different European based cultural identity in existance which in many regards is more tolerable in terms of democracy and human rights than neighbouring Orthodox Slavs. Long may it continue.

For the record the same thing is happening to Evangelical Christianity, though in this instance it's a US dominance of ideological thought (as well as church planting, missionary work and the good old fashioned dollar) that has based itself in small churches in Europe and larger churches in Africa, to great distress.
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« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2012, 10:02:45 am »
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Good point.

Unfortunately Wahabism is making some inroads in Bosnia. Jihadists got in during the civil war as mercenaries and control some mountain villages i central Bosnia. Many are married to Bosnian women.
Wahabi foundations also fund mosque building and educational centers in several cities.
Money talks.
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« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2012, 01:30:55 am »
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I was referring to the United States; should have made that clearer. As I gather, in Europe it's much more similar to the American experience with blacks or Hispanics.

Yeah, I think the analogy with blacks in the US is fairly decent.
I don't see how it could be.  Blacks are not considered foreign to America at all, except to a very small number of ideological racists with mythical narratives about genealogy.  Blacks are sometimes considered inferior or dangerous, but there's no doubt to most people that they are American.  (Obama here is an anomaly due to his foreign sounding name and cosmopolitan life story)

There are some parallels with Hispanics in terms of questioning allegiance, but that concern is not at the center of the public consciousness, the distinction between Islam and the West dwarfing the distinctions between Hispanics and Anglos.   The best US parallels are in the past: the Chinese and Catholic immigrants of the 19th century, for example.  There was a lot of concern about Catholics operating their own schools, having an allegiance to the Pope rather than the nation, and setting up their own social institutions - a parallel anti-society to America.  Some of the same attitudes are what we hear about Sharia taking over the US, so that laws need to be passed against it in Oklahoma, and Herman Cain needs to become President so he can stop it from taking over the country.. Yes, the fear here is over the top.
 
 I've heard that the vast majority of Muslims don't want to establish Sharia law, even in Europe - that is the kind of thing the left their home countries to avoid.  it's just a few organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood that are agitating for it, and a few well meaning public figures and academics willing to listen to them.
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« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2012, 02:55:40 am »
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I was referring to the United States; should have made that clearer. As I gather, in Europe it's much more similar to the American experience with blacks or Hispanics.

Yeah, I think the analogy with blacks in the US is fairly decent.
I don't see how it could be.  Blacks are not considered foreign to America at all, except to a very small number of ideological racists with mythical narratives about genealogy.  Blacks are sometimes considered inferior or dangerous, but there's no doubt to most people that they are American.  (Obama here is an anomaly due to his foreign sounding name and cosmopolitan life story)

There are some parallels with Hispanics in terms of questioning allegiance, but that concern is not at the center of the public consciousness, the distinction between Islam and the West dwarfing the distinctions between Hispanics and Anglos.   The best US parallels are in the past: the Chinese and Catholic immigrants of the 19th century, for example.  There was a lot of concern about Catholics operating their own schools, having an allegiance to the Pope rather than the nation, and setting up their own social institutions - a parallel anti-society to America.  Some of the same attitudes are what we hear about Sharia taking over the US, so that laws need to be passed against it in Oklahoma, and Herman Cain needs to become President so he can stop it from taking over the country.. Yes, the fear here is over the top.
 
 I've heard that the vast majority of Muslims don't want to establish Sharia law, even in Europe - that is the kind of thing the left their home countries to avoid.  it's just a few organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood that are agitating for it, and a few well meaning public figures and academics willing to listen to them.

I think the whole loyalty thing is a very American phenomenon. In Sweden at least, people don't really think much in those terms.

Here the hostility centres around crime, cultural differences and views on women, gays, etc.
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« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2012, 09:06:43 am »
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Of course then you have these guys, who are not exactly helpful...

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