Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 21, 2014, 02:12:44 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Political Debate (Moderator: Beet)
| | |-+  Most socialist country
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Poll
Question: Which country is the most socialist today?
Sweden   -7 (22.6%)
Venezuela   -3 (9.7%)
Cuba   -11 (35.5%)
China   -1 (3.2%)
Vietnam   -0 (0%)
Israel   -0 (0%)
Bolivia   -0 (0%)
Other   -4 (12.9%)
No countries are socialist   -5 (16.1%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 31

Author Topic: Most socialist country  (Read 3482 times)
politicus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4915
Denmark


View Profile
« on: March 15, 2012, 11:09:12 pm »
Ignore

I would say 9. No socialist countries today, but some with socialist elements in their political/economic systems.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:02:35 am by politicus »Logged

fezzyfestoon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8287
United States


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 12:09:29 pm »
Ignore

Well, the US' reverse socialism is kind of impressive. The corporate ownership of society on such a massive scale is worth noting. We involuntarily support them while they control society's actions and demand participation. Very socialistic in a way.

Also - BAM, ninjad my way in before someone else calls the US socialist Tongue
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 12:11:39 pm by fezzyfestoon »Logged
Redalgo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2549
United States


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 01:02:11 pm »
Ignore

I don't think any countries are truly socialist today but the Nordic states and France seem closest.
Logged

"I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to see realized." ~ Nelson Mandela
Хahar
Xahar
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 38877
Bangladesh


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2012, 01:02:40 pm »
Ignore

Oh, France is very, very far from that.
Logged

Update reading list

The idea of parodying the preceding Atlasian's postings is laughable, of course, but not for reasons one might expect.
Redalgo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2549
United States


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2012, 01:07:43 pm »
Ignore

Oh, France is very, very far from that.

Ya, but at least some social democratic policies are in place and there is a relatively high level of public support for socialism when compared to most other developed countries. Also, most of the Nordics have apparently been moving away from democratic socialism for decades. Just trying to make do with the options I've got. What do you think, though?
Logged

"I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to see realized." ~ Nelson Mandela
harry_johnson
Newbie
*
Posts: 13
United States


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2012, 04:49:45 pm »
Ignore

It's not technically a country, but Vermont.
Logged
Franzl
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22225
Germany


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2012, 04:54:11 pm »
Ignore

Depends what we're calling Socialist. The nordic countries are egalitarian, but I wouldn't say socialist. Quite the contrary, they have very capitalist methods of generating lots of income, it's just that it's redistributed at a considerably higher level than in most other places.
Logged
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31153
France


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.87

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2012, 05:40:01 pm »
Ignore

It's not technically a country, but Vermont.

DWTL is back ! Grin
Logged

Quote from: IRC
22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26905


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2012, 06:52:03 pm »
Ignore

The Nordic countries obviously are very liberal (in European sense) in a lot of fields. They just have high taxes and levels of redistribution.
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
R2D2
20RP12
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22898
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -7.74, S: -7.48

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 09:46:01 pm »
Ignore

It's not technically a country, but Vermont.

DWTL is back ! Grin

It's Derek.
Logged


i like girls but there is NOTHING better then a sexi hott dude
angus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15082
Political Matrix
E: 1.53, S: -7.61

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2012, 03:01:08 pm »
Ignore

other:  North Korea is the only one, and it's only sort of socialist.  Cuba and China make the claim, but they are not truly socialist.

Really, it has been a long time since there were any seriously socialist countries.  Although the word hadn't been coined yet, the Tahuantinsuyu (empire of the Inca) were probably the last example of a socialist country, and they were crushed by the decidedly non-socialist Hapsburg Spaniards in 1533.  Exceedingly collectivist and very efficient at communications given that there were no horses in the Americas then, they were able to redistribute goods and services quickly from areas of plenty to areas of drought.  Starvation and famine was unknown.  Education was free and compulsory.  Laws were strict (e.g., the punishment for adultry was being dropped onto a stone from a height, which caused the spine to break).  The Inca economy involved a high degree of central planning. There's no market currency. Individuals were required to pay taxes to the state in the form of a certain amount of labor, and the state provided basic necessities. All for one, and one for all.  Truly a socialist utopia.  They also had the good sense to absorb the dieties of the conquered peoples into their pantheon, rather than try to supplant local gods with their own.  This made them successful imperialists as well.  That's probably what I love best about the Inca.  They were successful socialists and successful imperialists, at the same time.  Not many societies can say that.  

anyway, I voted "other" (for North Korea)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 03:18:30 pm by angus »Logged

Breaking hearts and minds
Old Europe
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5972


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 03:07:46 pm »
Ignore

So, Scandinavia is a place where capitalism actually works, as opposed to the United States for instance? Tongue
Logged
angus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15082
Political Matrix
E: 1.53, S: -7.61

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 03:22:13 pm »
Ignore

So, Scandinavia is a place where capitalism actually works, as opposed to the United States for instance? Tongue

Obviously capitalism works well in Scandinavia, but it also works well in the US and in China.  It would work well in Cuba, if we didn't have this asinine trade embargo that's starving them.
Logged

Beet
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16058


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 04:25:07 pm »

No country completely, but North Korea is the closest.
Logged

Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
Kalwejt
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 37326


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2012, 06:01:58 pm »
Ignore

No country completely, but North Korea is the closest.

Lol.
Logged

Redalgo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2549
United States


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2012, 06:08:55 pm »
Ignore

Doesn't North Korea have a complex caste system based upon perceived loyalty to the regime?
Logged

"I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to see realized." ~ Nelson Mandela
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26905


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2012, 06:10:38 pm »
Ignore

North Korea is probably the least free market economy.
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
seanobr
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 78
United States


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2012, 11:12:49 pm »
Ignore

If our definition of socialism is merely the collective deprivation of a state's population, then the North Korea of today might qualify, since by any metric it has never recovered from the famine that followed Kim Il-sung's death or the songun strategy that helped solidify Kim Jong-il's rule at the expense of any rational economic management.  North Korea is still nominally socialist, in that it has everything you would expect to find in a country that willingly modeled itself after the Soviet Union and didn't undergo the evolution that China and Vietnam have embraced, but that identification is only useful to distinguish North from South and imbue the state with a legitimacy it otherwise would not have.  There is more than one paradox inherent in the D.P.R.K.'s existence, but the most salient is that if it ever were to relinquish its rhetorical commitment to socialism and natural desire to unify the peninsula under Communist control, the North would lose its reason for being.  As long as the Kim family is portrayed as the embodiment of the revolutionary ideal, and that belief is the animating purpose of the state, North Korea has no choice but to remain socialist in self-conception, because any reform would imperil the state's survival.  I want to be careful not to depict the North as immutable, because it has shown pragmatism in the past when trying to advance its national interest, such as Kim Il-sung's infamous meeting with Shin Kanemaru, but even a D.P.R.K. with a formal market economy would find dispensing with its socialist lexicon difficult.

Most people are unaware that, in the period immediately after the Korean War, the North managed to establish a relatively successful command economy, an extraordinary achievement given the devastation inflicted upon it by America's unrelenting aerial bombardment during the conflict.  It weaned itself off of Soviet reconstruction assistance much sooner than the South was able to with its American support; the original Chollima Movement's collectivization was not as disastrous as it might have been given Kim Il-sung's zealousness, although it produced no tangible improvement in the North's standard of living and, since rationing remained in place, was eventually moderated; and the North regularly exceeded its central planning targets, leaving it with a higher GDP per capita than the South into the Ford administration.  Indeed, the North Korean state probably reached its apogee in 1972, when Kim Il-sung, after consolidating his institutional control throughout the preceding decade, made his alteration to the constitution and created the position of President for himself, an arrangement that would remain in place until his death.  The overriding theme since has been one of erosion, at first contained and then abrupt and catastrophic, overwhelming the state's insolvent ideology and ability to compensate.  The collapse of public distribution and the industrial sector inevitably gave rise to a shadow market economy, as much of the populace was forced into trading to survive, and it has proven so integral to the functioning of the state that an order to end market activity during the Kim Jong-il mourning period was retracted almost immediately after its issuance.

In actuality, North Korea is the most stratified society currently in existence, something that is not inconsistent with its claim to be protecting an authentic Korean identity, as Silla's bone rank classification or the Yi Dynasty's caste system would attest to.  Until the famine, one's songbun -- which is frequently rendered into the traditional 'core', 'wavering', and 'hostile' groupings but may be a more diverse continuum with over fifty separate categories -- was supreme, contributing to every facet of an individual's life.  Kim Il-sung's revolutionary colleagues, their descendants, and the students of Mangyongdae Revolutionary School were at the height of privilege and deference, while those who collaborated with the Japanese colonial administration, religious activists, and the yangban who managed to preserve their position after Korea lost its independence suffered tremendously, thus inverting the traditional hereditary elite and, during the state's founding, emboldening Kim Il-sung's immature power base.  An ideal example of the former is Choe Ryong-hae, the son of Choe Hyon, who fought with Kim Il-sung in Manchuria and later became Vice President of the country; Ryong-hae is a party secretary, member of the Central Committee and Central Military Commission, had a personal relationship with Kim Jong-il, and was no doubt incubated in an environment far different from those with only a minutely deficient songbun.  I would not find it surprising if there are areas of the country where the absence of control is total control, those cast down no longer meaningfully participating in any social community and left to survive on their own, their isolation and desperation precluding any sort of meaningful discontent.

However, the introduction of the jangmadang and private commerce, coupled with a tolerance the state has had to adopt in order to endure the famine and its own dysfunction, has mitigated the impact of a negative songbun and is even fundamentally altering the type of individuals who are perceived as desirable and successful.  The absence of a credible central economy has led to a redefinition of the North's society, with a legitimization of the inequality that the North dedicated much of its existence to obscuring and the empowerment of women being the two most notable effects.  It's engendered bureaucratic conflict, with Jang Song-taek and O Kuk-ryol at one time competing against each other to earn foreign exchange, and it's telling that the D.P.R.K.'s equivalent of princelings, the Ponghwajo, are all involved in commerce, overwhelmingly illicit, with Kang Tae Sung and O Se Hyon foremost among this group.  A position with the party or government no longer possesses the prestige it once did, which is both positive and negative; the organic change that has come about as a result of the state's incapacity could eventually flower into something more significant, although I'm quite reluctant to make that argument my own and would not pursue a foreign policy dependent on it.  At the same time, the regime's continued erosion of power, both internally and with respect to the South, will make it even more dependent on its nuclear arsenal to substantiate itself.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 11:14:47 pm by seanobr »Logged

"The issue is not the value of freedom.  Instead, it is what power can accomplish in spreading freedom.  It is also whether universalizing freedom is a proper interest of foreign policy." - Robert Tucker
Sibboleth
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 56811
Saint Helena


View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2012, 07:52:54 am »
Ignore

This is an incredibly stupid thread.
Logged

"I have become entangled in my own data, and my conclusion stands in direct contradiction to the initial idea from which I started. Proceeding from unlimited freedom, I end with unlimited despotism. I will add, however, that there can be no solution of the social formula except mine."
PASOK Leader Hashemite
Hashemite
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31469
South Africa


Political Matrix
E: -1.29, S: -7.30

P P P

View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2012, 08:08:24 am »
Ignore

This is an incredibly stupid thread.

Any thread which directly involves the word 'socialism' is bound to be an incredibly stupid thread on this forum.
Logged

politicus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4915
Denmark


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 10:05:55 am »
Ignore

This is an incredibly stupid thread.

Any thread which directly involves the word 'socialism' is bound to be an incredibly stupid thread on this forum.
Yeah, you are right. Didn't realize that as I am new. Wording of the question also slightly wrong. Closing the poll now.
Logged

Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines