Most socialist country
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  Most socialist country
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Poll
Question: Which country is the most socialist today?
#1
Sweden
 
#2
Venezuela
 
#3
Cuba
 
#4
China
 
#5
Vietnam
 
#6
Israel
 
#7
Bolivia
 
#8
Other
 
#9
No countries are socialist
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 31

Author Topic: Most socialist country  (Read 6074 times)
politicus
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« on: March 15, 2012, 11:09:12 PM »
« edited: March 16, 2012, 09:02:35 AM by politicus »

I would say 9. No socialist countries today, but some with socialist elements in their political/economic systems.
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fezzyfestoon
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 12:09:29 PM »
« Edited: March 17, 2012, 12:11:39 PM by fezzyfestoon »

Well, the US' reverse socialism is kind of impressive. The corporate ownership of society on such a massive scale is worth noting. We involuntarily support them while they control society's actions and demand participation. Very socialistic in a way.

Also - BAM, ninjad my way in before someone else calls the US socialist Tongue
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Redalgo
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 01:02:11 PM »

I don't think any countries are truly socialist today but the Nordic states and France seem closest.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2012, 01:02:40 PM »

Oh, France is very, very far from that.
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Redalgo
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2012, 01:07:43 PM »

Oh, France is very, very far from that.

Ya, but at least some social democratic policies are in place and there is a relatively high level of public support for socialism when compared to most other developed countries. Also, most of the Nordics have apparently been moving away from democratic socialism for decades. Just trying to make do with the options I've got. What do you think, though?
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harry_johnson
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2012, 04:49:45 PM »

It's not technically a country, but Vermont.
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Franzl
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2012, 04:54:11 PM »

Depends what we're calling Socialist. The nordic countries are egalitarian, but I wouldn't say socialist. Quite the contrary, they have very capitalist methods of generating lots of income, it's just that it's redistributed at a considerably higher level than in most other places.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2012, 05:40:01 PM »

It's not technically a country, but Vermont.

DWTL is back ! Grin
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Gustaf
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2012, 06:52:03 PM »

The Nordic countries obviously are very liberal (in European sense) in a lot of fields. They just have high taxes and levels of redistribution.
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They put it to a vote and they just kept lying
20RP12
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 09:46:01 PM »


It's Derek.
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angus
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »
« Edited: March 19, 2012, 03:18:30 PM by angus »

other:  North Korea is the only one, and it's only sort of socialist.  Cuba and China make the claim, but they are not truly socialist.

Really, it has been a long time since there were any seriously socialist countries.  Although the word hadn't been coined yet, the Tahuantinsuyu (empire of the Inca) were probably the last example of a socialist country, and they were crushed by the decidedly non-socialist Hapsburg Spaniards in 1533.  Exceedingly collectivist and very efficient at communications given that there were no horses in the Americas then, they were able to redistribute goods and services quickly from areas of plenty to areas of drought.  Starvation and famine was unknown.  Education was free and compulsory.  Laws were strict (e.g., the punishment for adultry was being dropped onto a stone from a height, which caused the spine to break).  The Inca economy involved a high degree of central planning. There's no market currency. Individuals were required to pay taxes to the state in the form of a certain amount of labor, and the state provided basic necessities. All for one, and one for all.  Truly a socialist utopia.  They also had the good sense to absorb the dieties of the conquered peoples into their pantheon, rather than try to supplant local gods with their own.  This made them successful imperialists as well.  That's probably what I love best about the Inca.  They were successful socialists and successful imperialists, at the same time.  Not many societies can say that.  

anyway, I voted "other" (for North Korea)
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 03:07:46 PM »

So, Scandinavia is a place where capitalism actually works, as opposed to the United States for instance? Tongue
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angus
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 03:22:13 PM »

So, Scandinavia is a place where capitalism actually works, as opposed to the United States for instance? Tongue

Obviously capitalism works well in Scandinavia, but it also works well in the US and in China.  It would work well in Cuba, if we didn't have this asinine trade embargo that's starving them.
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Beet
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 04:25:07 PM »

No country completely, but North Korea is the closest.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2012, 06:01:58 PM »

No country completely, but North Korea is the closest.

Lol.
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Redalgo
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2012, 06:08:55 PM »

Doesn't North Korea have a complex caste system based upon perceived loyalty to the regime?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2012, 06:10:38 PM »

North Korea is probably the least free market economy.
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seanobr
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2012, 11:12:49 PM »
« Edited: March 19, 2012, 11:14:47 PM by seanobr »

If our definition of socialism is merely the collective deprivation of a state's population, then the North Korea of today might qualify, since by any metric it has never recovered from the famine that followed Kim Il-sung's death or the songun strategy that helped solidify Kim Jong-il's rule at the expense of any rational economic management.  North Korea is still nominally socialist, in that it has everything you would expect to find in a country that willingly modeled itself after the Soviet Union and didn't undergo the evolution that China and Vietnam have embraced, but that identification is only useful to distinguish North from South and imbue the state with a legitimacy it otherwise would not have.  There is more than one paradox inherent in the D.P.R.K.'s existence, but the most salient is that if it ever were to relinquish its rhetorical commitment to socialism and natural desire to unify the peninsula under Communist control, the North would lose its reason for being.  As long as the Kim family is portrayed as the embodiment of the revolutionary ideal, and that belief is the animating purpose of the state, North Korea has no choice but to remain socialist in self-conception, because any reform would imperil the state's survival.  I want to be careful not to depict the North as immutable, because it has shown pragmatism in the past when trying to advance its national interest, such as Kim Il-sung's infamous meeting with Shin Kanemaru, but even a D.P.R.K. with a formal market economy would find dispensing with its socialist lexicon difficult.

Most people are unaware that, in the period immediately after the Korean War, the North managed to establish a relatively successful command economy, an extraordinary achievement given the devastation inflicted upon it by America's unrelenting aerial bombardment during the conflict.  It weaned itself off of Soviet reconstruction assistance much sooner than the South was able to with its American support; the original Chollima Movement's collectivization was not as disastrous as it might have been given Kim Il-sung's zealousness, although it produced no tangible improvement in the North's standard of living and, since rationing remained in place, was eventually moderated; and the North regularly exceeded its central planning targets, leaving it with a higher GDP per capita than the South into the Ford administration.  Indeed, the North Korean state probably reached its apogee in 1972, when Kim Il-sung, after consolidating his institutional control throughout the preceding decade, made his alteration to the constitution and created the position of President for himself, an arrangement that would remain in place until his death.  The overriding theme since has been one of erosion, at first contained and then abrupt and catastrophic, overwhelming the state's insolvent ideology and ability to compensate.  The collapse of public distribution and the industrial sector inevitably gave rise to a shadow market economy, as much of the populace was forced into trading to survive, and it has proven so integral to the functioning of the state that an order to end market activity during the Kim Jong-il mourning period was retracted almost immediately after its issuance.

In actuality, North Korea is the most stratified society currently in existence, something that is not inconsistent with its claim to be protecting an authentic Korean identity, as Silla's bone rank classification or the Yi Dynasty's caste system would attest to.  Until the famine, one's songbun -- which is frequently rendered into the traditional 'core', 'wavering', and 'hostile' groupings but may be a more diverse continuum with over fifty separate categories -- was supreme, contributing to every facet of an individual's life.  Kim Il-sung's revolutionary colleagues, their descendants, and the students of Mangyongdae Revolutionary School were at the height of privilege and deference, while those who collaborated with the Japanese colonial administration, religious activists, and the yangban who managed to preserve their position after Korea lost its independence suffered tremendously, thus inverting the traditional hereditary elite and, during the state's founding, emboldening Kim Il-sung's immature power base.  An ideal example of the former is Choe Ryong-hae, the son of Choe Hyon, who fought with Kim Il-sung in Manchuria and later became Vice President of the country; Ryong-hae is a party secretary, member of the Central Committee and Central Military Commission, had a personal relationship with Kim Jong-il, and was no doubt incubated in an environment far different from those with only a minutely deficient songbun.  I would not find it surprising if there are areas of the country where the absence of control is total control, those cast down no longer meaningfully participating in any social community and left to survive on their own, their isolation and desperation precluding any sort of meaningful discontent.

However, the introduction of the jangmadang and private commerce, coupled with a tolerance the state has had to adopt in order to endure the famine and its own dysfunction, has mitigated the impact of a negative songbun and is even fundamentally altering the type of individuals who are perceived as desirable and successful.  The absence of a credible central economy has led to a redefinition of the North's society, with a legitimization of the inequality that the North dedicated much of its existence to obscuring and the empowerment of women being the two most notable effects.  It's engendered bureaucratic conflict, with Jang Song-taek and O Kuk-ryol at one time competing against each other to earn foreign exchange, and it's telling that the D.P.R.K.'s equivalent of princelings, the Ponghwajo, are all involved in commerce, overwhelmingly illicit, with Kang Tae Sung and O Se Hyon foremost among this group.  A position with the party or government no longer possesses the prestige it once did, which is both positive and negative; the organic change that has come about as a result of the state's incapacity could eventually flower into something more significant, although I'm quite reluctant to make that argument my own and would not pursue a foreign policy dependent on it.  At the same time, the regime's continued erosion of power, both internally and with respect to the South, will make it even more dependent on its nuclear arsenal to substantiate itself.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2012, 07:52:54 AM »

This is an incredibly stupid thread.
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2012, 08:08:24 AM »


Any thread which directly involves the word 'socialism' is bound to be an incredibly stupid thread on this forum.
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politicus
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 10:05:55 AM »


Any thread which directly involves the word 'socialism' is bound to be an incredibly stupid thread on this forum.
Yeah, you are right. Didn't realize that as I am new. Wording of the question also slightly wrong. Closing the poll now.
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