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| | |-+  Protesters rally over Florida teen's death, demand arrest
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Author Topic: Protesters rally over Florida teen's death, demand arrest  (Read 5746 times)
Beet
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« on: March 19, 2012, 07:03:08 pm »
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Sanford, Florida (CNN) -- Protesters upset about the shooting death of an unarmed Florida teen rallied outside a local courthouse Monday, demanding the arrest of a neighborhood watch captain who told police he shot the teen in self-defense.

...

According to the 911 calls released on Friday, terrified neighbors implored dispatchers to send police as a voice in the background screamed for help.
Martin was carrying a drink and candy when George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain, called 911 to report a suspicious man, authorities said.
The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman not to confront him. But by the time police arrived, Martin lay dead with a gunshot wound in the chest, according to Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/19/justice/florida-teen-shooting/?hpt=hp_bn2

Florida has some draconian laws. Murder is legal so long as there is no evidence you weren't acting in "self defense", the cops can't touch you.

"Zimmerman told police he shot the teen in self-defense, authorities said, and remains free as the state attorney investigates. Police said he has not been charged because there are no grounds to disprove his story of what happened.
"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense," the police chief said. "We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have.""
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nclib
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2012, 07:10:58 pm »
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He definitely needs to be arrested. He only thought the person was suspicious.
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2012, 07:24:58 pm »
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Aye, I've been keeping up with this story on another message board for a week.  Ugly ugly situation.  The "neighborhood watch" guy is certainly an asshat and probably did it, but the prosecution is (probably correctly) balking at calling for his arrest due to lack of evidence against him.  You can't get a conviction (unless the shooter is black of course) in this country on "probably did it" levels of evidence.
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2012, 08:07:15 pm »
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The boy was unarmed and minding his own business, he was the one on the tape screaming for help, yet the neighborhood watch leader is claiming self-defense. Unbelievable.
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2012, 08:28:48 pm »
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So in Florida carrying 26 grams of weed is treated far more severely than gunning down an unarmed person you think is "suspicious". See now why I call it a joke state?
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2012, 08:34:20 pm »
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And remember, the only thing that looked "suspicious" about him was the fact that he was black.
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2012, 09:47:07 pm »
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Be careful here. The media coverage is favorable to a rush to judgement but there is a lot of uncertainty over what happened. Zimmerman claims he was the one who screamed for help. Three witnesses say the boy was the one who screamed for help. The police say one of the witnesses changed her story, which she angrily denies. One of the witnesses claims the police officer corrected her she reported that it was the boy who screamed for help.

Zimmerman claims he was attacked, and he has a wound in the back of his head. Of course, that only proves that there was a fight at some point.

All we can say for certain at this point is that 1.  Zimmerman should not gotten out of his vehicle and pursued Martin, and 2. IMO, since Zimmerman was 100 lbs. heavier and armed, it's hard to believe he could not have subdued Martin without deadly force, and 3. Florida's "Stand Your Ground" / "Shoot First" law makes it much more difficult for the police to arrest Zimmerman.

According to the so-called Duty to Retreat under English common law:

"If a person can safely retreat and, therefore, avoid killing the aggressor, deadly force is unnecessary. Nonetheless, jurisdictions are sharply split on the issue of retreat.  A slim majority of jurisdictions permit a non-aggressor to use deadly force to repel an unlawful deadly attack, even if he is aware of a place to which he can retreat in complete safety. Many jurisdictions, however, provide that a non-aggressor who is threatened by deadly force must retreat rather than use deadly force, if he is aware that he can do so in complete safety."

In other words, if the police wanted to arrest Zimmerman, their best reasonable suspicion that he broke the law would have been that he violated the duty to retreat. However, Florida repealed its duty to retreat laws in 2005 and replaced it with the above-linked "Stand Your Ground" / "Shoot First" law. Since then, 17 states have rapidly followed suit, with little debate. Needless to say I think this is a mistake.
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2012, 09:50:13 pm »
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Considering that Zimmerman was the one who engaged him it doesn't matter, if the kid fought back it was self-defense on HIS part. The real tragedy here is that the kid WASN'T armed, then there'd be just one less racist piece of sh!t in the world instead of one less innocent teenager.

Though it's worth noting that his life is already utterly ruined regardless of if he gets arrested or not.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 09:53:31 pm by The needle and the damage done »Logged




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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2012, 09:52:57 pm »
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Considering that Zimmerman was the one who engaged him it doesn't matter, if the kid fought back it was self-defense on HIS part. The real tragedy here is that the kid WASN'T armed, then there'd be just one less racist piece of sh!t in the world instead of one less innocent teenager.

Zimmerman claims he was attacked from behind though. I'm not saying I believe it... but that is what the claim is and that is the only reason he's not under arrest. I don't think this would have ended better if there were 2 guns instead of one. You're assuming the kid was innocent (again, he may well have been, but we don't know) and you're assuming the kid would have killed Zimmerman first, and you're assuming Zimmerman deserved to die (even if he is a racist bigot).
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2012, 09:56:49 pm »
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No, I'm just saying the kid he harassed for no reason was less deserving.
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2012, 10:06:08 pm »
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How is the "attacker" defined here? We have an armed person who, it seems, got out of a car (or was he just walking by?) to attack another (unarmed) person - who, at that point, might have been (unsuccessfully) acting in self-defense. Is it being contested that Zimmerman was the first one to approach the kid, and not the other way around? Are there any witnesses?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 10:08:53 pm by ag »Logged
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 10:17:51 pm »
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Zimmerman definitely got out of his car and pursued Martin but there aren't any witnesses as to who initiated physical contact.
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 10:21:59 pm »
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Of course Zimmerman is going to say he was attacked, it serves his defense. I find it difficult to believe that someone with a gun is going to be screaming for help from someone who is smaller than they are. And he did get out of his car when emergency advised him not to. At any rate, the FBI and DOJ are said to be looking into this, so thank god that Zimmerman isn't just being given a free pass.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 10:44:51 pm by DrScholl »Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 10:54:49 pm »
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The United States puts more people behind bars than any nation in the world. And yet this man remains free.

Unbelievable. We really are a nation in love with violence.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2012, 04:20:22 pm »
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Apparently there was a witness that said he saw Martin beating Zimmerman, backing up Zimmerman's story. But it has only been reported on "myfoxorlando". If this is true then it's quite surprising that this has not been picked up more broadly. I am curious to see what the justification could be, because without this account the story is far more unfavorable for Zimmerman. The news outlets are whipping people into a frenzy, so if it turns out that this guy did see it and backs up Zimmerman's story, then it'll be a disaster.
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2012, 04:42:31 pm »
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How is the "attacker" defined here? We have an armed person who, it seems, got out of a car (or was he just walking by?) to attack another (unarmed) person - who, at that point, might have been (unsuccessfully) acting in self-defense. Is it being contested that Zimmerman was the first one to approach the kid, and not the other way around? Are there any witnesses?

Here is what we know about what happened for sure:

1. The watch captain, who is the party that is armed, calls the police about someone he thinks is suspicious and on foot.
2. The police tell him that they'll send someone to look into it, and to not follow the suspicious person.
3. The watch captain starts following him in his car anyways.
4. At some point the watch captain gets out of his car.
5. An altercation of some kind occurs at some point, and someone is screaming for help. The watch captain shoots his gun.

The result is an unarmed black teenager dead, and an armed white man who couldn't follow police instructions walking free - even if Zimmerman was the one who was attacked this definitely does not help racial tensions.
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ag
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2012, 04:42:57 pm »
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Once again, Zimmerman, by every account, came up, unprovoked in any way, to Martin and initiated the altercation. Zimmerman was armed, and, as his actions later would show, ready to use his gun. At that point, if I understand the Florida law right, Martin had every right to shoot Zimmerman dead in self-defense (mind it, it's not even obvious that Martin, unlike Zimmerman, had anywhere to flee - though, of course, that's irrelevant from the standpoint of Florida law). So, how would Martin striking Zimmerman with his bare hands (as there does not seem to be any evidence he was armed with anything more than an iced tea) change the calculus? Zimmerman attacked, Martin (perhaps) responded, Zimmerman got his gun and shot Martin. The self-defense argument seems to be unambiguously on the Martin side.

Or is the right interpretation of the Florida law that in every altercation whoever kills his/her opponient is, by definition, acting in self-defense? I would appreciate knowing that for sure: if that is, indeed, is the case (which seems to be the only explanation why Martin fighting Zimmerman would matter at all), I would do my best to avoid ever finding myself in Florida again, as a matter of personal safety.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 04:48:16 pm by ag »Logged
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2012, 04:45:51 pm »
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Ideally, he'd be arrested and tried for murder, but I'm not sure they'll have the evidence they need to get a conviction.  Now, if they can at least get him on a charge for not listening to the 911 dispatcher, that'd at least be a small consolation.  Sadly, I'm not sure this will have a just ending.
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2012, 05:43:25 pm »
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Ideally, he'd be arrested and tried for murder, but I'm not sure they'll have the evidence they need to get a conviction.  Now, if they can at least get him on a charge for not listening to the 911 dispatcher, that'd at least be a small consolation.  Sadly, I'm not sure this will have a just ending.

They should try for manslaughter instead of murder - being that you can't say his actions were premeditated it would probably be easier to get a jury to convict on a lesser charge.
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2012, 09:28:37 pm »
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So a grand jury has now been convened over it. Oh and they found a call he made to his girlfriend right before being gunned down which proves that the killer clearly didn't act in self-defense. Guy better just hope for a racist jury.
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2012, 09:59:10 pm »
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Guy better just hope for a racist jury.

Has there ever been a problem getting one in the South?
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2012, 12:15:55 am »
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Is George Zimmerman actually white?
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2012, 12:35:13 am »
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Is George Zimmerman actually white?

Not that it really should matter but no. He is definitely at least partially Hispanic. I guess you can make the argument that Hispanics can be of any race, which is true but not really how most people classify such matters.
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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2012, 12:39:40 am »
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Florida always lets the real criminals go free. Are you a terrorist who blew up an airplane killing 73 people? No problem if you are friends with the Bush family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch
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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2012, 12:49:33 am »
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Florida has a felon as a Governor too, let's not forget.
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