Protesters rally over Florida teen's death, demand arrest

[jimrtex]

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

This claims the gun was collected as evidence, and the report identified the victim.

The tape released by the police ran 4:11 and that on Youtube 2:42

He doesn't clearly say "f**king coons".  He is clearly a douche and like I said before, he probably murdered this kid for no good reason.  But we need proof of guilt for a conviction in this country, not just a dead kid and an asshat holding a smoking a gun.

even  the guy who wrote the "stand your ground" law says that the 911 call provides probable cause for an arrest. He said the law does not give you the right to pursue someone and then find yourself in a situation where you can then claim self-defense.

The scandal here is the local PD. They didn't even bother to check the kid's cellphone to notify his family logging him as a John Doe. And amazingly the kid's body was tested for drugs and alchohol but the shooter wasn't. They even let him keep his loaded gun. If this didn't become a news item, this whole thing would have just gone away and this guy would have got away with murder.

[jimrtex]

The emphasis is mine. Blatantly ignoring the instructions of the 911 dispatcher is a clear case of obstruction of justice; Zimmerman was thus "engaging in an unlawful activity" at the time of the incident and as soon as that's proven in a court of law, Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law will not apply to him in the slightest. Therefore, he still had a duty to retreat and was unjustified in the use of deadly force.

After Zimmerman reported that Martin was running, the dispatcher asked if he were following him.  And then told him "we don't need you to do that", Zimmerman said "OK".

I don't know how the the dispatcher knew that he was moving, or whether he could tell if Zimmerman was still moving, or if Zimmerman was actually moving after he acknowledged the suggestion not to follow.

The phone call lasted another 1-1/2 minutes.

So if I call 911, and the dispatcher tells me to stay inside; and I nonetheless go outside, have I obstructed justice?

Since the fighting and shooting didn't happen on the street, Zimmerman wasn't in his truck.

If Zimmerman was trying to figure out where Martin had gone, and Martin jumped him, and either hit in him in the back of the head, or pushed him so he hit his head, would Zimmerman be justified in fighting back?

[jimrtex]

I was under the impression the cops had questioned Zimmerman more, and then decided they didn't have enough to make an arrest.  But I guess I was wrong in that, so with that being said, I do think the police chief should be removed.

He told the police that he had shot Martin, and while they were cuffing him, they noticed his back was wet, and his head was bleeding.  After Sanford fire department attended to his injuries, he was taken to the police station, and questioned.  The police investigation determined that there was not probable cause, and released him.

[jimrtex]

How could Zimmerman be "standing his ground" in "self-defense" when he went off in pursuit of an unarmed teenager -- a decision which went against both what the 911 dispatcher told him and general neighborhood watch protocol?  In fact, neighborhood watch is not supposed to carry firearms.  This isn't even a case where Zimmerman saw Martin on his property.  He just decided he looked "suspicious" and now the result is a dead unarmed teenager.

He was not on a neighborhood watch, he was in his car when he saw Martin and called the police.  He had a CHL, and if you are going to carry, it makes sense to always carry.

He did not pursue Martin.  After Martin started running, he apparently was driving along a street, and the dispatcher asked if he were following Martin.  He said yes, the dispatcher said that "we don't need you to do that", to which Zimmerman responded "OK".

The phone call lasted another 1-1/2 minutes.  So either Zimmerman had stopped; the dispatcher thought he had stopped; or the dispatcher thought it wasn't that important.

He later got out of his car.

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They did an autopsy on the victim, as they do in all cases.   After they took Zimmerman to the police station for questioning, he was released (one of the complaints was that a narcotics and alcohol investigator questioned Zimmerman, but the major crimes investigator was at the location of the shooting.

The police kept the gun as evidence.

[jimrtex]

Shooting someone fatally in the chest is a reasonable response to a broken nose?

What if he is pounding your head into the cement?

If you are going to shoot someone in self defense, better the chest at close range, rather than the back at 50 feet, don't you think.

[jimrtex]

Whereas we, of course, trust the judgment of wannabe cops with restraining orders against them from previous violent incidents who habitually make phone calls to the police about trivial sh**t.

46 phone calls over 8 years is not all that many.

[jimrtex]

How could Zimmerman be "standing his ground" in "self-defense" when he went off in pursuit of an unarmed teenager -- a decision which went against both what the 911 dispatcher told him and general neighborhood watch protocol?  In fact, neighborhood watch is not supposed to carry firearms.  This isn't even a case where Zimmerman saw Martin on his property.  He just decided he looked "suspicious" and now the result is a dead unarmed teenager.

He was not on a neighborhood watch, he was in his car when he saw Martin and called the police.  He had a CHL, and if you are going to carry, it makes sense to always carry.

He did not pursue Martin.  After Martin started running, he apparently was driving along a street, and the dispatcher asked if he were following Martin.  He said yes, the dispatcher said that "we don't need you to do that", to which Zimmerman responded "OK".

The phone call lasted another 1-1/2 minutes.  So either Zimmerman had stopped; the dispatcher thought he had stopped; or the dispatcher thought it wasn't that important.

He later got out of his car.

First off, whether Zimmerman was on official watch duty at the moment or not is not an excuse to break accepted neighborhood watch protocol.  He pursued a suspect with his gun, neither of which he should have done.  As a member of the neighborhood watch he should have been well aware of the proper procedure.  He is not a law enforcement officer.  

You claimed that Zimmerman should not have been carrying a gun since he was on neighborhood watch.  But he wasn't on neighborhood watch.  He was going to the store.  I seriously doubt that people involved in neighborhood watch are told not to report strange or suspicious activity that they observe when going to work or driving.

He did not pursue Martin.  It is your fantasy that the 250 pound 28 YO 5'9 guy outran the 6'0 160 pound 17 YO until he got close enough to shoot him at close range.

He saw someone who appeared to be walking about, just looking at houses, who fit the description of those who had committed burglaries in the area.  he called the police.  He gave them a description.  He said that Martin had started to run.

He was in his truck and he started to follow.  If the engine was running, he might just have put the truck into gear and been creeping along at 5 MPH.  The dispatcher somehow figured this out.  Maybe he can figure it out from the phone cells, maybe he could hear the engine running.  Maybe he was just intuitive.

The dispatch asked Zimmerman if he were following Martin.  Zimmerman immediately said "yeah", and when the dispatcher reminded that "we don't need you to do that".  Zimmerman immediately said "OK".

He did not pursue after being told not to.  To the contrary, he immediately acknowledged the recommendation.   The phone call continued for another 1-1/2, and there is no evidence that Martin remained in sight.

Either:

(1) Zimmerman stopped;

(2) Zimmerman continued to follow Martin and effectively fooled the dispatcher;

(3) Zimmerman continued to follow, the dispatcher knew it, but decided it was hopeless to try to get Zimmerman to stop;

(4) Zimmerman continued to follow, the dispatcher knew it, and wanted Zimmerman to do it.  The "order" to stop, was just to establish plausible deniability.

I vote for (1).  What about yourself.

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Kennard said the National Sheriff's Association does not have a record of the group registering as a Neighhborhood Watch Program (proper noun).  Kennard was acting as bureaucrat protecting his organization's trademarks.

The Sanford Police Department brochure:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/flyers/Neighborhood_Watch_english.pdf

doesn't say anything about registering with the Neighborhood Watch Program.  Sanford police did meet with the neighborhood watch group in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

Your statement that he did not pursue Martin is false.  Per the 911 tapes, he admitted he was in pursuit of Martin (the dispatcher asked if he was following Martin and he said "yeah").  When the 911 dispatcher told him to stop he said "okay" but I am skeptical that he actually stopped -- the continued sound of his heavy breathing suggests that wasn't the case.  And if he was not pursuing Martin, why did he get out of his car?  Furthermore, Zimmerman's account of events is contradicted by Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him at the time the shooting occurred:

"Pursue" is not the same as "follow".

The tape confirms that Zimmerman at least acknowledged that he was no longer following Martin; rather than the popular belief that he pursued Martin after being directed not to.  Agreed?

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How did she know Martin was "cornered"?  You realize that this pursuit if carried out over at least 4 minutes was slow as molasses.  Did his girl friend call police after hearing her friend had been chased by a strange person, and then the call was disconnected after she heard shoving.  There is no contemporaneous account of her interpretation of events.

As for your apparent assertion that the Sanford Police conducted a fair investigation, I will respond to that later when I have time.  Needless to say I could not disagree more.

Remember that the two witnesses who were actually outside reported that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

[jimrtex]

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.

Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

[jimrtex]

"Pursue" is not the same as "follow?"  Well then he was "following" Martin.  And would any of this have happened if he had NOT "followed" Martin? (with a gun)

Pursue:  Follow (someone or something) to catch or attack them.

Follow:  Go after (someone) in order to observe or monitor.

Zimmerman observed something suspicious and called the police.  He gave a description of Martin, what he appeared to be doing.  After he observed Martin running, he began to follow him so that he could continue to observe him.  After the dispatcher told him that it was not necessary to follow him, he acknowledged the request.

Or do you think the dispatcher actually meant "we don't need you to catch or attack the subject"?

Zimmerman said that "he ran" which indicates that Martin was no longer in sight.  And he told the dispatcher to tell the officer where his truck was.

I don't know why Zimmerman left his truck.  Maybe he got out of his truck to wait for the police officer, and then decided to go look behind the townhouses.

It is your conjecture that he followed the instructions of the dispatcher to stop looking for Martin.  Many would disagree with you.  Are you really assuming he did just because he "okay."  Hard to believe given that he got out of his car with his gun and the person he was following is now dead.

The dispatcher did not tell him to stop looking for Martin.   "Are you looking for the subject?"  "Yeah"  "OK, we don't need you to do that" "OK".

You were told by someone that Zimmerman pursued Martin, even after being ordered not to do so.  Since this conformed to your prejudices, you adopted it as your belief.  After I pointed out that the tape does not support such a conclusion, you think I am making the conjecture.

Zimmerman shot Martin.  Martin is dead.  That does not mean that Zimmerman was following him.

[jimrtex]

Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car. The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

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Marcia Clark is a paid performer, and trained as a lawyer.  She would try to present things in a way that conform to people's prejudices, so that they would jump to conclusions.

The police report says that the policeman didn't notice the wound on the back of the head until he was putting the cuffs on.  It sounds like he was sitting in the back of the squad car when the Sanford Fire Department was treating him.

And you can't deny the policeman was looking at the back of Zimmerman's head.  What did Marcia Clark say that he was doing.

Have you seen the reverse angle video from the garage?  See if there is something that you missed in the first video completely.

[jimrtex]

Then, the mortician who prepared Trayvon’s body for burial told MSNBC last night that the 17-year-old’s body didn’t show any signs of violence to support Zimmerman’s account.

When Nancy Grace interviewed the mortician, he said that when he was doing the preparation, that he didn't really know anything about the circumstances of Martin's death.  He was in Fort Lauderdale.   Remember that the reason for Martin being at the morgue so long was because the funeral home did not pick up the body for 24 hours after the autopsy had been completed.

When asked about where on his chest Martin had been shot, the mortician was unable to say, because that is where the autopsy had been done (I assume meaning that was where he had been cut open).

The mortician did not say that the body didn't show any signs of violence such as bruised hands.  He said that he did not notice any injuries to the hand.

[jimrtex]

Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

Here's the video itself, for the lazy who don't want to search for it.

Go to the City of Sanford web site and you can see the complete video of all their surveillance cameras and not the edited media versions.

[jimrtex]

Now, the work of the lead detective on the Zimmerman case looms large. Justice might be blind, but she’s not dumb. And lead detective Investigator Chris Serino set out to prove it

MSNBC cut a minute out of the 911 call, which started with the sister (who also sounded very young) of the 13-YO calling 911, and then after determining that she didn't appear to a direct witness, asked to talk to her brother.  He said he had seen two men fighting and then his dog got loose, and so he didn't see the shooting.

It then went to an interview with the mother.  They didn't ask whether the police had interviewed the daughter; nor whether they had asked the Mother what she had observed.

[jimrtex]

Zimmerman has a history of violent behavior.  Assaulting a police officer and a domestic violence charge among other things.

The "police officer" was an ABC agent, and the claim is that Zimmerman, then  21, came up and started talking to his friend, and after a while shoved the officer.

If the officer was making an arrest, he was doing a crap job of controlling the situation.  If he was in uniform, and Zimmerman shoved him, it is pretty amazing that the charges were dropped.

The judge ordered he and his ex-girlfriend to stay away from each other.  They were apparently a couple from 18 to 21.

[jimrtex]

ABC agents are police officers.

Police officers may enforce liquor laws, and ABC agents may have law enforcement powers.

They probably aren't in uniform.

[jimrtex]

ABC agents are police officers.

Police officers may enforce liquor laws, and ABC agents may have law enforcement powers.

They probably aren't in uniform.

ABC agents are police officers. Google it.

Law enforcement officers.  Not police officers.

If you were trying to see if a bar was serving persons who were intoxicated or serving underage drinking, you aren't going to be wearing a uniform.

[jimrtex]

It was hard to believe it was Zimmerman, it sounded like someone younger and the older a man is, the less likely he is to reach certain octaves and decibels. Of course they can't claim it's Martin's voice without a sample, but that doesn't change the fact that their analysis did not match Zimmerman's voice. There are big holes in this case and it really needs to be investigated properly.

The call has 45 seconds before the gunshot.   So there must have been some (10 seconds) before that for the caller to react, and decide to call 911.

What would cause someone to scream for help?

[jimrtex]

What would cause someone to scream for help?

Being chased by a guy with a gun?

If you were being chased by a guy with a gun, would you run?

In 45 seconds, assuming a 6'3 17 YO can run a 15 second 100 yard dash, he could have reached the place where he was staying AND returned.

I really don't think the 5'9 guy was chasing after 6'3 guy for 45 seconds until he finally caught up with and fired at short range.

[jimrtex]

What would cause someone to scream for help?

Being chased by a guy with a gun?

And, your theory is that a young man running away from a heavier older man screaming "Help" at the top of his lungs decided to stop and turn around so he could be shot in the chest? Persons whom opt for "flight" rather than "fight" tend to keep running.

Ok then, being shoved to the ground by a guy with a gun who had been creepily following you around - happy now?

Why would Zimmerman shove him to the ground?

[jimrtex]

What would cause someone to scream for help?

Being chased by a guy with a gun?

And, your theory is that a young man running away from a heavier older man screaming "Help" at the top of his lungs decided to stop and turn around so he could be shot in the chest? Persons whom opt for "flight" rather than "fight" tend to keep running.

Ok then, being shoved to the ground by a guy with a gun who had been creepily following you around - happy now?

Why would Zimmerman shove him to the ground?

Why would he get out of his car to look for him when the police told him not to pursue?

He did not get out of his truck when the police told him not to pursue.

He got out of his truck when Martin began running.  If Martin ran down the street, it is more likely that Zimmerman would have simply driven around the corner.  So it is more likely that Martin ran along the path behind the townhouses, or perhaps even over on the next street.  Zimmerman reacted and got out of his truck.  It was then that the dispatcher told him not to follow.  Zimmerman acknowledged, and said that "He ran", which implies that he was no longer in sight.

[jimrtex]

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There are about 4-1/2 minutes from the time Zimmerman reported that Martin had run toward the back entrance until the fighting apparently began.

At a fast walk (15 minutes/mile) he could have got home (to where he was staying), returned, gone home, and come back a second time.

Zimmerman had told the dispatcher to have the police officer call him when he got to the complex.   Why would he go back to his truck?  It makes more sense to find the street address so he could tell the cop.

[jimrtex]

Zimmerman had told the dispatcher to have the police officer call him when he got to the complex.   Why would he go back to his truck?  It makes more sense to find the street address so he could tell the cop.

1. Because as neighborhood watch captain you would think he'd know the streets of his own neighborhood.
2. Because he thinks there's a suspicious, potentially dangerous person around. Why not go to the safety of his vehicle to get some shelter from the rain?

But not necessarily the address, especially if he wasn't in his truck and the truck was not in front of a residence.  It is almost continuous driveway in front of any building, so you would be blocking a driveway.  He started to tell the dispatcher that the officer would see his truck.  The dispatcher asked the address, and then started questioning whether he lived in the area, as if to possibly suggest that the police officer meet him at his house.

The dispatcher then asked him if he wanted to meet at the mailboxes, which is not where he was, nor where his truck was.  He realized that, and then decided to have the police officer come to him.   The dispatcher is probably trained to get something that can be keyed into their mapping system so it will show up on the police officer's screen.

How hard was the rain?  You had people walking their dogs, so it may have let up a bit.

[jimrtex]

He used a gun ffs! I could maybe understand it if he used some other weapon which killed him, but a gun is too far! Surely he knew that a gun can easily kill! It wasn't like the kid was that dangerous anyway. The people that say they are either don't know how kids communicate today, or are on the same level as a HP as Mr Zimmerman.

What do you mean "how kids communicate today"?