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Author Topic: anyone heard this argument before  (Read 845 times)
freepcrusher
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« on: July 10, 2012, 07:12:34 pm »
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I've met plenty of fundies before and argued with them. One thing I've heard them say is that the point of the separation of church and state is to keep the state out of the church not the church out of the state.

Anyone heard this argument before? What's your view on it?
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Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 07:29:46 pm »

Yes I have.  I'm not a fundamentalist, but I wholeheartedly agree with it.  One of the reasons why religion has thrived here in the States even as it has precipitously declined in Europe is that our churches are not state sponsored.  The pastors and denominations can't count on getting paid via taxes but actually have to make what they say relevant to the laity.
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Cathcon
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 10:52:20 am »
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The point for the Jeffersonian idea of separation was that neither interferred with the other. Not one gets priority over the other like both sides might argue. Church stays out of government matters, government stays out of church matters. No established churches, no taxes going to churches, no government controlling who gets what religious job, no church saying who gets what political job, etc.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 09:03:58 pm »
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I generally agree with Cathcon, but I think it's important to distinguish between Church and God. While Church and State may be separate to make sure neither entity interferes in the administration of the other, I don't believe anyone ever intended God to be precluded from government.
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 11:34:49 pm »
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I generally agree with Cathcon, but I think it's important to distinguish between Church and God. While Church and State may be separate to make sure neither entity interferes in the administration of the other, I don't believe anyone ever intended God to be precluded from government.

Well, no. We want folks to vote and govern according to their beliefs and core values. The way this works in America means that we come late to much-needed change sometimes, but on the whole I'd say it's been immensely good for us as a polity and a people.
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 04:58:53 pm »
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I've met plenty of fundies before and argued with them. One thing I've heard them say is that the point of the separation of church and state is to keep the state out of the church not the church out of the state.

Anyone heard this argument before? What's your view on it?
It sounds like a nonsense statement. You can't have the church be part of the state and have the state be kept out of the church.
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 03:00:42 pm »
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It makes a lot of sense.  Try to imagine Congress confirming the appointment of Bishops of the United American Church.  Or Congressmen trying to weasel themselves a nice cushy bishopric as a retirement sinecure.
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 04:04:40 pm »
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It makes a lot of sense.  Try to imagine Congress confirming the appointment of Bishops of the United American Church.  Or Congressmen trying to weasel themselves a nice cushy bishopric as a retirement sinecure.

Which is exactly what would happen. Because it would be America.
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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 10:24:30 pm »
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It makes a lot of sense.  Try to imagine Congress confirming the appointment of Bishops of the United American Church.  Or Congressmen trying to weasel themselves a nice cushy bishopric as a retirement sinecure.

Were I a Congressman, I'd definitely go for the latter.
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