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Mechaman
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« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2012, 09:28:53 am »
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The single most salient reason these days is that Jews are more secular than the general population.

This pretty much.

Which explains why we haven't seen the shift in voting habits that we have in other traditionally Democratic immigrant groups (namely Catholics).

While taken at face value it is correct, I don't really like that answer because it ignores the  historical background.  It would be similar to saying that Cuban Americans are more likely to vote for Republicans because they live in Florida.  Many Jewish immigrants had a strong influence in socialist and labor movement stretching back to the continent.  Their roots as a persecuted minority and their location in the urban cores all had and continue to have a strong influence on their mores and voting patterns.   The strength of the Nativist element, KKK and Bircher movements during periods of the GOP's history did not help matters either.  Voting patterns for some groups are not as changeable as many think. Therefore, the current GOP would be wise to pump the brakes on a lot of their anti-immigration rhetoric.

Granted.
Jewish populations have traditionally been very progressive in regards to issues like labor and civil rights.
And as one of a few people who continually point out that the GOP wasn't all good in the 19th Century, I agree about the Nativist elements.  Arguably, the adoption of Know Nothing members into the GOP back in the Civil War Era, along with the draft, arguably made groups like German, Irish, and Polish Catholics staunch Democrats in the urban areas.  Jewish immigration into these urban areas, where the aforementioned immigrants were becoming influential in the urban machinery of the Democratic Party, naturally leaned Democratic after a few decades of settlement.
Arguably, Republican endorsements of movements like Women's Rights and Civil Rights for blacks probably kept the Jewish population less Democratic than their immigrant fellows.  I don't have the numbers, but from what I gathered about Jewish voting habits it seems as if though Jewish support for Democrats didn't become "die hard" (ie 75% or above) until about FDR when the ideological lines of the parties got more clear. The GOP becoming the party of right wing economic policies and the Democrats adopting the Civil Rights plank in 1948 and other clear statements of ideological intent probably made the Jews even more Democratic.
This is in contrast to say Catholics who voted Democratic from the 19th Century-mid 20th Century more out of disdain of the moneyed WASP elites than actual ideology (except maybe opposition to anti-immigrant policies and maybe Prohibition).

So yes, a good deal of historical perspective goes into this and I apologize for making it sound so simple.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 09:31:05 am by MechaRepublican »Logged



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« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2012, 09:32:07 am »
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The thing with claiming that orthodox Jews are a growing proportion of American Jewry is that, many secular Jews marry non-Jews.

So American Jewry is constantly spreading as it's being dilluted at the edges. I don't know how many Orthodox children grow up to be Reform adults, but obviously some of these Orthodox children will grow up and marry outside of the faith.
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« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2012, 10:19:48 am »
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You seriously live in a bubble dude. Seriously, look at where Jews live in states like California, Florida, Illinois and Maryland. Where I live there's probably more Jews in my district and St. Paul's than the rest of the state combined despite those being only 1/4th of the state.

Oh and there is obviously no shortage of liberal Jews in NYC.
I didn't say there wasn't I said Jews in big cities and it's suburbs are more likely to vote Republican than a jew in a rural or semi rural area.

Where are the heavily Jewish rural areas? The few Jews who did live in rural areas probably moved there and came from a more urban and liberal background and probably brought their voting habits with them. I have a feeling though that Jews who lives in exurbs are significantly more Republican than Jews in general since they would move to the exurbs for the same reasons non-Jewish whites do (caring more about owning a big house than having a sane commute to work or good culture and amenities around, and fear of minorities.)

California actually tracks "Jewish" as an ethnicity for voter registration reasons, and your intuitions are correct.  Granted, California hardly has tons of hyper-ethnic Jews, but Jews in heavily Republican areas tend to lean Republican -- less so, but the heavily Dem tilt of Jews would be significant reduced were their distributions reflective of the urban/suburban/exurban/rural make-up of the U.S. as a whole.

I'm not sure whether the orthodox Jews really compensate for this nationwide effect.  I'm also not sure how the hell to characterize the places they live on the urban/suburban scale...

What kind of causation are we assuming here?
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« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2012, 10:40:54 am »
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I've just noticed that that's the case for mainline Protestantism in general. Active members of PCUSA and ELCA congregations are right-leaning, even though the clergy of both voted strongly for Gore. The PCUSA, in particular, has a democratic structure and at the General Assembly, it was decided that gays can become pastors, that Arizona was to be boycotted because of their immigration policy etc.

Yet look at these figures:
Quote
   Almost half of members and elders identify themselves as Republicans, as compared to one quarter of pastors and 13 percent of other ministers.
    Two-thirds of other ministers and half of pastors are Democrats, as compared to 30 percent of members and elders.
    About 20 percent of Presbyterians in each group identify as Independents.


Not really true. Although it is certainly the case that more active members of liberal mainline churches tend to be less liberal than their clergy, still studies show that two-thirds of Presbyterians, and about three-quarters of Episcopalians and Congregationalists are pro-choice on abortion, and sizeable majorities are liberal on other social issues as well. Since the 1960s and probably earlier surveys were finding more liberal and progressive social views associated with these groups. They were the strongest supporters of desegregation in the 50s and 60s and then the strongest proponents of the ERA in the 70s. Most of the Republican PCUSA and ECUSA people I've come across (including those involved in churches) are actually quite liberal on social issues. Theologically, these denominations are heavily skewed towards the liberal position as well: Pew surveys have found that less than 20% of members of Episcopal and Congregational churches believe in the literal truth of the Bible, while 40% believe it has no supernatural inspiration at all. Other surveys have found that these views have existed since the 1950s. Truth is, these denominations have always been among the best-educated and most intellectual groups in America, and that naturally leads to more progressive attitudes toward theology and social issues.

As far as "churchgoers being more conservative" in many of these denominations that isn't really much of an issue. Take for instance the local big, liberal Methodist church in my area. There isn't a whole lot of pressure to attend church regularly, as a result only the old people who grew up in Methodism their whole life will still be there faithfully every week. Younger people, families, etc. whose views tend to be more progressive will drop by casually every month or so. I read that in the Congregationalist church (for the purpose of this discussion I will use this term rather than UCC because UCC contains many non-Congregationalists) only about one-fifth of members consider themselves weekly attenders. In fact, in this denomination, it is considered "regular" attendance if you go once a month. So you can't necessarily say that because only old people still go to church weekly in liberal denominations, therefore practicing members of these denominations are more conservative. The standards necessary to be a "practicing" member are much looser.

And for those who say that the liberal denominations are no longer Republican: the Pew research center carried out a nation-wide survey of religious groups, which, although not perfect, is about the best source that we have to use for determining the US's religious landscape (it's called the Religious Landscape Survey in fact). The survey found that only 31% of mainline Presbyterians, 44% of UCC members (presumably higher among Congregationalists), and 45% of Episcopalians voted for Kerry in 2004. This would indicate that PCUSA is staunchly Republican while the other two are more mixed theologically.
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« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2012, 10:59:55 am »
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There's a difference between Orthodox Jews and what NY Jew is talking about, who are called Hasids or Haredi (sometimes "ultra-Orthodox" but that's kind of a silly term.) These are the those guys in the beards and black hats who live in their own segregated communes, speak Yiddish or Hebrew at home and aren't very integrated into society at all. Standard Orthodox are Jews that might be serious about keeping fast days and kosher laws and might even be socially conservative, but are still fairly integrated into society, don't dress any different than most people (at least out of synagogue) and don't vote in bloc 90+% for the candidate their rabbi tells them to. Joe Lieberman is actually one of these Orthodox. The types NY Jew is always talking about I'd be surprised if they were much more than 1% of the American Jewish population.
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« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2012, 01:26:59 pm »
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There's a difference between Orthodox Jews and what NY Jew is talking about, who are called Hasids or Haredi (sometimes "ultra-Orthodox" but that's kind of a silly term.) These are the those guys in the beards and black hats who live in their own segregated communes, speak Yiddish or Hebrew at home and aren't very integrated into society at all. Standard Orthodox are Jews that might be serious about keeping fast days and kosher laws and might even be socially conservative, but are still fairly integrated into society, don't dress any different than most people (at least out of synagogue) and don't vote in bloc 90+% for the candidate their rabbi tells them to. Joe Lieberman is actually one of these Orthodox. The types NY Jew is always talking about I'd be surprised if they were much more than 1% of the American Jewish population.

You are, sort of, right on everything, except the last - they are A LOT more than 1% of US Jewish population - and growing fast. NY City has a lot of them, as do certain other parts of the country - in Rockland county there are whole communities, where 2nd and 3rd generation US Jews speak English haltingly and with a heavy Yiddish accent. That you don't see them as much is because they are, normally, content to stay within their own ghettos. But they are quite numerous there.

Though, of course, you should not confuse the Hassid and the Haredi - these are not synonims. Well, Hassids are Haredi, but the other way around is not true.

The Haredi is a general lable for the ultra-Orthodox, but these are highly diverse. There are a bunch of Hassidic movements, each following a historical rabbincial dynasty (or a memory of a great rabbi, as the case may be w/ the Bratslaver and, these days, in part w/ the Lubavicher). Hassidim, of course, are heirs to a raidcal mystical movement that emerged in the 18th century, mostly in what's now Ukraine, Poland and Romania (the "Lithuanian"-origin Lubavicher are an exception - they are, historically, from what's now Belarus) , and for decades was considered quit UNorthodox.  There are quite a few Lithuanian yeshivas, which follow the anti-Hassidic Orthodox "misnaged" tradition. There are the Haredi Sephardic and other Oriental communities, that have their own distinct traditions. It cannot be assumed that on every given issue even the Bobover, Satmar and Lubavicher hassids would be in agreement between themselves - though, of course, on most "All-American" issues they are pretty much the same sort of the "Amish". But, to the extent there is a block voting, it is not an "all-Haredi" block vote - it is a matter of a given rabbi or a given Hassid community coordinating w/ the others.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 01:43:13 pm by ag »Logged
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« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2012, 01:39:03 pm »
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There are several reasons why Jews are historically Dem. But these two are the most important, in my view:

1. Most US Jews are heirs to the secular tradition that emerged w/ the Jewish enlightenment in the 19th century Europe and flourished between the World Wars in and around Poland. When this was transplanted to the US soil, it was far to the left of the American mainstream. In the 1950s New York Jewish community being a "rightwinger" meant being a socialist - proper leftwingers were communist (or, may be, even card-carying Communist) Smiley) Even when the kids of the earstwhile "right-" and "left-wingers" moderated their views, they stayed, generally, within the truly and sincerely leftwing political discourse. Even a moderate Republican, such as Giuliani, in this discourse is frequently described as a "fascist" - and a good Jew simply doesn't vote for a fascist. Mainstream Republicans are simply too much in league w/ the Devil even to be considered.

2. Of course, American Jews have always been archetypal outsiders in a Christian nation. Even today, they are the largest community in the US that does not claim to be Christian. This has always made them a thorn in the eyes of the mainstream. And, of course, the Democratic Party has always had an outsider wing. To put it bluntly, one reason the Jews have always voted Dem are the BigSkyBobs of this world - as long as there are a lot of people around who believe that if you don't celebrate Christmas you are somehow evil, Jews have every reason to stay w/ the outsider party.  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 01:41:02 pm by ag »Logged
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« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2012, 01:55:55 pm »
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The ultra-Orthodox are very unlikely to be responsible for most Jewish kids in the "NY metro". At least, if we think of the NY metro as the Tri-State area, which includes the Long Island and big chunks of New Jersey and Connecticut. With certain exceptions (e.g., Rockland), most suburban Jews are secular (even if they are Orthodox). Yes, they do have fewer kids, on average, but there are simply much too many of them.

Of course, if one starts to be more rigorous in the definition of who's a Jew, this might be viewed differently. There is quite a bit of intermarriage, many kids in secular families are not Halakhikally Jewish, so, by defining the Jewish community sufficiently narrowly, you might make the ultras the majority.

However, there is a reason why doing this is not very consistent w/ asking for any sort of government protection. If you go to the government, you have to follow the governmental definition of who's a Jew, whatever it might be. Halakha is NOT part of the US law - not any more than its Muslim equivalent, the Sharia (or, for that matter, than the cannons of the Catholic Church). I remember that case in the UK, when a government-supported Jewish school was forced to accept as a Jew somebody, who was not Jewish by the Halakhic tradition. That's what happens if you breach the wall between the Church and State: the Church (or, for that matter, the Synagogue) looses the ability to apply its own doctrine. It's a very dangerous path, which, if I were a believer (still more so, if I were a believer of a minority faith), I would have been very much afraid to take.   
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« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2012, 02:21:46 pm »
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Jews have been Democratic since FDR; this comes from a combination of anti-immigrant sentiment in the 20's in the GOP (the Klan was very bipartisan then instead of just the military arm of the southern Democrats), plus a Jewish tradition of supporting "the common good". In addition, as there was no "Moral Majority" revival with Jews, they ended up more socially liberal than Christians.
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« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2012, 02:30:58 pm »
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I'm not sure whether the orthodox Jews really compensate for this nationwide effect.  I'm also not sure how the hell to characterize the places they live on the urban/suburban scale...

Eh well his point is valid if you look at the parts of NYC he's talking about, but this is similar to someone in a Cuban part of Miami arguing that urban Hispanics aren't likely to be Democrats. He doesn't seem to realize that Jews outside of NYC exist (and by this we're even including the rest of New York State, since places like Monsey and Kiryas Joel are obviously not urban.)

And of course this all ignores the fact that the Orthodox are a very very small percentage of the national Jewish population if you disregard his No True Scotsman argument.
it's not just NY (maybe the "park" makes it rural)
Baltimore McCain won Park Heights.
Chicago McCain won West Rogers Park
you can also spot Orthodox presence on a Obama McCain map in Greater Miami, Greater Los Angeles, and Greater Cleveland.

Where in Greater Los Angeles?
Beverly Hills
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« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2012, 02:33:16 pm »
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You seriously live in a bubble dude. Seriously, look at where Jews live in states like California, Florida, Illinois and Maryland. Where I live there's probably more Jews in my district and St. Paul's than the rest of the state combined despite those being only 1/4th of the state.

Oh and there is obviously no shortage of liberal Jews in NYC.
I didn't say there wasn't I said Jews in big cities and it's suburbs are more likely to vote Republican than a jew in a rural or semi rural area.

Where are the heavily Jewish rural areas? The few Jews who did live in rural areas probably moved there and came from a more urban and liberal background and probably brought their voting habits with them. I have a feeling though that Jews who lives in exurbs are significantly more Republican than Jews in general since they would move to the exurbs for the same reasons non-Jewish whites do (caring more about owning a big house than having a sane commute to work or good culture and amenities around, and fear of minorities.)

California actually tracks "Jewish" as an ethnicity for voter registration reasons, and your intuitions are correct.  Granted, California hardly has tons of hyper-ethnic Jews, but Jews in heavily Republican areas tend to lean Republican -- less so, but the heavily Dem tilt of Jews would be significant reduced were their distributions reflective of the urban/suburban/exurban/rural make-up of the U.S. as a whole.

I'm not sure whether the orthodox Jews really compensate for this nationwide effect.  I'm also not sure how the hell to characterize the places they live on the urban/suburban scale...

What kind of causation are we assuming here?

Sorry, where?  In my theoretical proportional redistribution of Jews?  None -- just if we took the current Jewish population and re-weighted the geographical distributions to be proportionate to the U.S.  Obviously that makes no sense, and I'm not arguing that living in the exurbs necessarily causes Jews to be Republican (that would be an ecological fallacy.)  It's more to do with pointing out that Jews aren't all that Democratic relative to the sort of areas they tend to live in, that's all.
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« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2012, 02:36:29 pm »
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There's a difference between Orthodox Jews and what NY Jew is talking about, who are called Hasids or Haredi (sometimes "ultra-Orthodox" but that's kind of a silly term.) These are the those guys in the beards and black hats who live in their own segregated communes, speak Yiddish or Hebrew at home and aren't very integrated into society at all. Standard Orthodox are Jews that might be serious about keeping fast days and kosher laws and might even be socially conservative, but are still fairly integrated into society, don't dress any different than most people (at least out of synagogue) and don't vote in bloc 90+% for the candidate their rabbi tells them to. Joe Lieberman is actually one of these Orthodox. The types NY Jew is always talking about I'd be surprised if they were much more than 1% of the American Jewish population.
many parts of Southern Brooklyn don't meet your criteria I know much more Orthodox jews who don't speak yiddish then I do who voted for Obama.  Flatbush is not hasidic but still went big for McCain
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« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2012, 02:38:47 pm »
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The ultra-Orthodox are very unlikely to be responsible for most Jewish kids in the "NY metro". At least, if we think of the NY metro as the Tri-State area, which includes the Long Island and big chunks of New Jersey and Connecticut. With certain exceptions (e.g., Rockland), most suburban Jews are secular (even if they are Orthodox). Yes, they do have fewer kids, on average, but there are simply much too many of them.

Of course, if one starts to be more rigorous in the definition of who's a Jew, this might be viewed differently. There is quite a bit of intermarriage, many kids in secular families are not Halakhikally Jewish, so, by defining the Jewish community sufficiently narrowly, you might make the ultras the majority.

However, there is a reason why doing this is not very consistent w/ asking for any sort of government protection. If you go to the government, you have to follow the governmental definition of who's a Jew, whatever it might be. Halakha is NOT part of the US law - not any more than its Muslim equivalent, the Sharia (or, for that matter, than the cannons of the Catholic Church). I remember that case in the UK, when a government-supported Jewish school was forced to accept as a Jew somebody, who was not Jewish by the Halakhic tradition. That's what happens if you breach the wall between the Church and State: the Church (or, for that matter, the Synagogue) looses the ability to apply its own doctrine. It's a very dangerous path, which, if I were a believer (still more so, if I were a believer of a minority faith), I would have been very much afraid to take.   
who said Ultra Orthodox (all Orthodox Jews are likley to vote for the Republican candidate this year)
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« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2012, 02:40:55 pm »
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There are a few issues here. All are generalization, obviously, but here are my observations:
1. Most Jews are terrified of the Republican Party's Christian nationalism.
2. Jews have a soft spot for the politics of poverty. Huge numbers of Jewish women in particular are teachers and social workers. Jews want to help.
3. Jews place a high value on personal freedom, and particularly resent Republicans invasion of their bedrooms
4. Jews also frequently work in financial services and accounting and see everyday that our economy is strongly biased in favor of organized wealth. That doesn't sit well with Jewish notions of social justice.
5. This is a relatively new one, but the GOP has marketed itself strongly in recent years as an anti-intellectual party. Jews are true believers in the power of schooling and the progress of science in particular.
6. American Jews have a strong distaste for unnecessary military adventures.
7. American Jews are very likely to judge a candidate (and regular people too) based on how they present themselves. If you come up swaggering with a 10 gallon hat on, dropping your gs, and trying to be a "regular guy," that doesn't play well with Jews. We want somebody who looks more professional.
8. Jews don't buy into the good old days narrative of the Republican Party. They weren't so good for us.

This is the correct answer, especially the bolded reasons.  The Christian right really does scare the hell out of us and when you throw in the Republican party's anti-intellectualism/proud ignorance...well...that alone would explain it Tongue  

Btw, Clarence, most Jews in the U.S. are socially liberal.  
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« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2012, 02:47:29 pm »
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There are a few issues here. All are generalization, obviously, but here are my observations:
1. Most Jews are terrified of the Republican Party's Christian nationalism.
2. Jews have a soft spot for the politics of poverty. Huge numbers of Jewish women in particular are teachers and social workers. Jews want to help.
3. Jews place a high value on personal freedom, and particularly resent Republicans invasion of their bedrooms
4. Jews also frequently work in financial services and accounting and see everyday that our economy is strongly biased in favor of organized wealth. That doesn't sit well with Jewish notions of social justice.
5. This is a relatively new one, but the GOP has marketed itself strongly in recent years as an anti-intellectual party. Jews are true believers in the power of schooling and the progress of science in particular.
6. American Jews have a strong distaste for unnecessary military adventures.
7. American Jews are very likely to judge a candidate (and regular people too) based on how they present themselves. If you come up swaggering with a 10 gallon hat on, dropping your gs, and trying to be a "regular guy," that doesn't play well with Jews. We want somebody who looks more professional.
8. Jews don't buy into the good old days narrative of the Republican Party. They weren't so good for us.

This is the correct answer, especially the bolded reasons.  The Christian right really does scare the hell out of us and when you throw in the Republican party's anti-intellectualism/proud ignorance...well...that alone would explain it Tongue  

Btw, Clarence, most Jews in the U.S. are socially liberal.  
but the key question is why when your great great grandparents would be much more socially Conservative then the avg Americans great great grandparents.
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« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2012, 03:00:04 pm »
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They wouldn't necessarily, though. I don't see where a brace of Orthodox Jewish immigrants from, say, the Pinsk Marshes (where my ancestors on that side came from) a hundred years ago would be more 'conservative' on what would now or then be considered 'social issues' than most other groups in America, immigrant or otherwise, at that time.
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« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2012, 03:03:07 pm »
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(all Orthodox Jews are likley to vote for the Republican candidate this year)

Why is that? I would assume that there are many Orthoox Jews with the same sort of political affiliation as Sheldon Silver.
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« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2012, 04:30:14 pm »
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They wouldn't necessarily, though. I don't see where a brace of Orthodox Jewish immigrants from, say, the Pinsk Marshes (where my ancestors on that side came from) a hundred years ago would be more 'conservative' on what would now or then be considered 'social issues' than most other groups in America, immigrant or otherwise, at that time.
If we magically brought back everyone who's able to vote in America's today's ancestors who were voting age in 1850 I doubt there would be more 1 issue voters then the 1850 Eastern European Jewish vote.
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« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2012, 04:33:18 pm »
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(all Orthodox Jews are likley to vote for the Republican candidate this year)

Why is that? I would assume that there are many Orthoox Jews with the same sort of political affiliation as Sheldon Silver.
I'm not even sure that Sheldon Silver voted for Obama in a secret ballot.  (there is no person who is even close to Sheldon Silver on anything in the Orthodox community because every single political decision that he makes stars with what's best politically for Shelly)

look at Teaneck's a "Modern" Orthodox community's voting record in the McCain Obama election also look at the modern Orthodox vote in the 5 towns area.
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« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2012, 04:36:48 pm »
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They wouldn't necessarily, though. I don't see where a brace of Orthodox Jewish immigrants from, say, the Pinsk Marshes (where my ancestors on that side came from) a hundred years ago would be more 'conservative' on what would now or then be considered 'social issues' than most other groups in America, immigrant or otherwise, at that time.
If we magically brought back everyone who's able to vote in America's today's ancestors who were voting age in 1850 I doubt there would be more 1 issue voters then the 1850 Eastern European Jewish vote.

If we were to do the same based on the time of the first vote in the United States, it would have been the opposite. You chose the date before the massive secular cultural explosion that created modern secular Jewry. If you really want to base yourself on 1850 and isisted on people voting as their ancestor then, most Jews would simply not have voted in a goyisher election. Back at the time they would have considered it treason to go to a state-sponsored rabbinical academy to study Torah under the goyishe-approved teachers.
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« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2012, 05:12:11 pm »
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They wouldn't necessarily, though. I don't see where a brace of Orthodox Jewish immigrants from, say, the Pinsk Marshes (where my ancestors on that side came from) a hundred years ago would be more 'conservative' on what would now or then be considered 'social issues' than most other groups in America, immigrant or otherwise, at that time.
If we magically brought back everyone who's able to vote in America's today's ancestors who were voting age in 1850 I doubt there would be more 1 issue voters then the 1850 Eastern European Jewish vote.

If we were to do the same based on the time of the first vote in the United States, it would have been the opposite. You chose the date before the massive secular cultural explosion that created modern secular Jewry. If you really want to base yourself on 1850 and isisted on people voting as their ancestor then, most Jews would simply not have voted in a goyisher election. Back at the time they would have considered it treason to go to a state-sponsored rabbinical academy to study Torah under the goyishe-approved teachers.

actually most jews who came to this country from 1880-1900 were Orthodox it was their children that went off the deep end.  There is no reason to assume that 1850 jews wouldn't have voted in American elections.  (anybody who doesn't know that Brooklyn had many sefardiem's opinion on many things is worthless anyway)

and trust me you have no clue as to what would have been considered treasonous (Voloizien had nothing to do with that)
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« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2012, 05:12:28 pm »
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Jews in Canada have begun to vote Conservative, so there's hope for the Republicans yet. As soon as they wake up and realize they should stop attacking immigrants, and instead embrace the conservative values that many minorities have. That's what the Tories have done here, and is what helped them win the last election.
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« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2012, 05:14:20 pm »
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here's the real reason (this could easily be expanded into a book) why jews vote democrat and are liberal
Most Jews who came to this country from 1880-1900 were Orthodox jews and due to many factors when they got here there young children left Orthodoxy and became more assimilated. To prove my point to you one of the classic reasons given why jews were so strongly involved in the labor movement was because of the exploiting in the sweatshops but what they don't focus on is why Jews originally joined the sweatshops as opposed to the factories like the Irish and Italians mostly did. The reason was because originally a jew could get a job in the sweatshops and keep the sabbath which would have been impossible to take off in a factory. Many Jews therefore voluntary went into the unregulated sweatshops to avoid working on sabbath. Many of the second generation kids grew up in this environment where keeping sabbath would mean you would lose your job. The fact that this was such a big issue at the time is clear from the fact that the 2 names America was referred to at the time was the "golden land" and the "trefa (non kosher) land" Using the argument of separation of church and state was one the main way that they tried to fight the blue laws. But to the jews who were arguing that what they really cared about was Sabbath not separation of church and state (as opposed to even as early the 40's-60's where that clearlly really was the issue )

The way this was finally won for the most part was a Jewish labor alliance pushing for the 5 day work week. Even the biggest labor leaders agreed that the only reason they were successful was because of Orthodox Jews (who by this time were no longer even close to the majority of all jews).

eventuality as Non Orthodox Jews abandoned Judaism the new set of "religious" principles that were adopted based on the problems of the 1st and 2nd generation American jews, and zero regards for context.
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« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2012, 07:43:35 pm »
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They wouldn't necessarily, though. I don't see where a brace of Orthodox Jewish immigrants from, say, the Pinsk Marshes (where my ancestors on that side came from) a hundred years ago would be more 'conservative' on what would now or then be considered 'social issues' than most other groups in America, immigrant or otherwise, at that time.
If we magically brought back everyone who's able to vote in America's today's ancestors who were voting age in 1850 I doubt there would be more 1 issue voters then the 1850 Eastern European Jewish vote.

If we were to do the same based on the time of the first vote in the United States, it would have been the opposite. You chose the date before the massive secular cultural explosion that created modern secular Jewry. If you really want to base yourself on 1850 and isisted on people voting as their ancestor then, most Jews would simply not have voted in a goyisher election. Back at the time they would have considered it treason to go to a state-sponsored rabbinical academy to study Torah under the goyishe-approved teachers.

actually most jews who came to this country from 1880-1900 were Orthodox it was their children that went off the deep end.  There is no reason to assume that 1850 jews wouldn't have voted in American elections.  (anybody who doesn't know that Brooklyn had many sefardiem's opinion on many things is worthless anyway)


Well, an opinion of anybody, who does not know that many Jews came to the United States long past 1900 on matters of US Jewry is even more worthless, my dearest Anti-American Jew (I believe that sobriquet fits you better - in the sense that you hate American Jews, not that you hate Americans or Jews Smiley) ).

As for the Jews in 1850... Well, you seem to be truly unaware of the life of the Jews in Russian empire in the 1850s. Yes, European Jews had been the archetypal cultural separatists in Europe for a 1000 years. Compared to them today's Haredim or Amish in the US or ultra-conservative Arabs in Europe (or even in Saudi Arabia) are paragons of assimilationism into the general European culture. There would have been no Jews left in Europe otherwisem, our ancestors would have completely assimilated - that much I'd grant you.

However, that degree of cultural separatism has consequences .There is a reason those people did not migrate en masse during the 1850s (back then most Jewish migrants into the US were from the much more assimilated communities; they were German Jews, not Russian Jews, and they were economic, not cultural conservatives, if they were conservative at all). Most Russian Jews would have had trouble migrating. Many of them were completely out of the civilization around them - much more so than today's ultra-Orthodox. They had no common language with the surrounding population - they spoke neither Russian, nor Polish, nor Ukrainian, nor Lithuanian (I guess, they could get by w/ the German-speakers by speaking Yiddish). If one of them had a Jewish newspaper from Germany delivered, he was viewed as a dangerous radical. If Russia were to hold elections at the time (which, of course, was something completely impossible for reasons unrelated), they would not have been able to participate: they would not have been able to file for such an election, or read a ballot. In some places they would, probably, only learn that it was happening from that same German Jewish newspaper - the news would have traveled via Berlin (and the secular newspaper office there Smiley )

Now, of course, there were other Jews in Russia as well. But the bulk of those, whose offsrping would later migrate were that way - completely, utterly separated from the contemporary civilization, except through an occasional beating by a police officer and an extortion by the tax collector.  Without the initial secularization that started, albeit tentatively, back in Russia, they would not have gotten  to the coast, still less to America: they wouldn't have known how to board a train.

Of course, secularization did not necessarily mean abandonment of the (somewhat relaxed) Orthodoxy, but in many cases it did lead to it. And, of course, the resettlement across the ocean reinforced it. True, they might still arrive to Ellis island with a full beard, but that beard would be cut fairly short some time after arrival, and their children would never let it grow in the first place. And they would become not merely leftist, but radical leftist. As community representatives in San Francisco told a visiting Russian Jewish terrorist leader (Gershuni), "All Jews are ready for the Revolution" - this was not a mere figure of speach, but a true reflection of the sentiment in a substantial part of the Jewish community in the US.

But this secularization was continuing back in the old countries as well - that was the period of the great secular outburst in the Jewish community. The Nazis would later take care of that society so well, that it is hard to imagine today that it ever existed, but there was real secular Yiddishland back then, a non-Medieval Jewish world and a modern (non-Zionist) Jewish civilization. Remants of this civilization would also find its refuge across the ocean.

Where you are VERY WRONG, is in that the Jews moved left because they were clueless about the origins of the socialist concerns among them. Unlike you, they were back then very well aware what they were doing: they personally and deliberately struggled against the Orthodox barbarism. Some of them retained sentimental attachment to the old rituals and mores, albeit loyal more in their breach than in their execution; others (and there were many of them) sincerely and wholeheartedly hated and despised them. Some attached themselves to the new secular (often socialist) Yiddishkeit, which had grown from the abandonment of the Orthodoxy; others followed the Jewish Renaissance ideal of becoming Jewish citizens of America (or Poland, or Germany - Mendelssohn's old ideal of the "German citizens of the Mossaic faith" was more than a catchy slogan); still others went for the new Zionist (back then also mostly socialist) idea. Their political ideals commonly developed in the conscious opposition to the barbarism of the previous century. They became socialists and communists not because they forgot how their ancestors lived their lives - but because they remembered it all too well.

In any case, claimng that modern American Jewish political ideas should follow those of their ancestors from 1850 is like claiming that German Americans should follow the political ideas of their pre-Reformation ancestors from the 1500.
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« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2012, 07:45:49 pm »
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I'm not sure whether the orthodox Jews really compensate for this nationwide effect.  I'm also not sure how the hell to characterize the places they live on the urban/suburban scale...

Eh well his point is valid if you look at the parts of NYC he's talking about, but this is similar to someone in a Cuban part of Miami arguing that urban Hispanics aren't likely to be Democrats. He doesn't seem to realize that Jews outside of NYC exist (and by this we're even including the rest of New York State, since places like Monsey and Kiryas Joel are obviously not urban.)

And of course this all ignores the fact that the Orthodox are a very very small percentage of the national Jewish population if you disregard his No True Scotsman argument.
it's not just NY (maybe the "park" makes it rural)
Baltimore McCain won Park Heights.
Chicago McCain won West Rogers Park
you can also spot Orthodox presence on a Obama McCain map in Greater Miami, Greater Los Angeles, and Greater Cleveland.

Where in Greater Los Angeles?
Beverly Hills

Iranian Jews, correct? I didn't know they were orthodox? Probably supporting heavyhanded US military action and wealthy to boot. I can see why they might vote Republican. Of course there's a lot more Jews that live in the Greater Los Angeles area and they vote Democrat.
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