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Author Topic: Holocaust denial  (Read 2980 times)
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« on: March 21, 2012, 09:48:36 pm »

The previous thread on this subject was not salvageable as it was, but a thread to discuss the topic of Holocaust denial and the motivations of those who deny the facts is appropriate for the History forum, and a search failed to reveal an older existing thread on the topic.
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 10:58:19 pm »
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Anti-Semites grasping at straws/lying through their teeth.
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2012, 08:44:35 am »
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Anti-Semites grasping at straws/lying through their teeth.

And the idiots naive enough to believe them too.

I've known a few people, educated people who didn't hold grudges against Jews before, who accepted the Holocaust denial story just because they went on a Holocaust Denial website and they were swayed by the pretty little graphs and distorted facts.  When I tell them that, after four months of Holocaust Studies in 12th grade of my Senior year that the Holocaust was most definitely real and that if anything people undersell how truly horrible it really was, they respond that I am a victim of public school propaganda forced onto the American public by the Bilderberg Elite or some crap like that.
There are some people in this world who no matter how hard you try will want to believe that there is something else beyond the tin can label.  Well, in the Holocaust that's just it: PEOPLE F***KING DIED.
Why this fact is continued to be denied beyond me other than it being propagated by anti-Jew racists and being bought and sold by idiot "New Believers".
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:39:24 pm by Cheesy Grits »Logged



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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 12:24:55 pm »
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I've known a few people, educated people who didn't hold grudges against Jews before, who accepted the Holocaust denial story just because they went on a Holocaust Denial website and they were swayed by the pretty little graphs and distorted facts.  When I tell them that, after four months of Holocaust Studies in 12th grade of my Senior year that the Holocaust was most definitely real and that if anything people undersell how truly horrible it really was, they respond that I am a victim of public school propaganda forced onto the American public by the Bilderberg Elite or some crap like that.
There are some people in this world who no matter how hard you try will want to believe that there is something else beyond the tin can label.  Well, in the Holocaust that's just it: PEOPLE F***ING DIED.

This is really a sad story. I discover every day how easily people can be indoctrinated and made to believe the most despicable lies.

And thank you Ernest for deleting the other thread.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:38:51 pm by Cheesy Grits »Logged



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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 12:50:09 pm »
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Holocaust denial would be laughable if it weren't so disgusting, as disgusting as the Holocaust itself. Words simply are not strong enough to describe this morbidity.

And the really depressing thing are not active anti-semites that are denying the Holocaust took place. What's really depressing are simple fools, who are buying this indoctrination.

Even if we're going to consider that widely accepted number of 6 millions Jews killed in the Holocaust is innacurate, it still doesn't make the Holocaust less horryfic. And the people who are trying to lower the number are usually part of the denial movement, looking for a way to justify their believes. That's why I don't like this kind of talk.

It's obvious that the Holocaust did take place. No sane person is going to claim that literally hundreds of thousands of eyewitness accounts, documents and other evidences are forged.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 12:55:33 pm by Kalwejt »Logged
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2012, 03:19:09 am »
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I do find it rather interesting in terms of human psychology, just like with the Truther movement. As in, why people go through all this to convince themselves of something so obviously ridiculous.

I remember there was a sketch once on Swedish TV about where Holocaust deniers think all those Jews went to. There was something about them waiting around for a late flight somewhere, IIRC.

All conspiracy theories can throw seemingly convincing details at you, but some of them are theoretically unsound whereas others are at least conceivable. Like, I think the Birther movement (or even the Moon landing hoax) are examples of conspiracies that make sense on a theoretical level (but are disproven by the details) which makes me see how people could believe it basedon faulty information.

But Holocaust denial?
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 07:15:20 am »
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The official position of Combat 18 - the SA to the early BNP's NSDAP - was that the Holocaust didn't happen but they wished that it had.

Which... er... says everything, really.
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2012, 08:14:31 pm »
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What do you consider holocaust deniers?  Because its a very touchy subject to me as a German Catholic with Jewish family members.  I believe that, unlike in most books, Jews, though specifically targeted for destruction, were not the only ones killed, and represent only (bad word choice) about 6 million of the 18 million people killed in the Holocaust.  Nazis would've gone on to kill the Catholics, (which they began to), and would've eventually wiped out everyone who wasn't a white aryan atheist.  Furthermore, I believe that textbooks unfairly single out Germans as the sole participants in the Holocaust (when many civilians of Poland, France, Estonia, Latvia, and more participated voluntarily in the execution of thousands of Jews and other races).  Finally, books and museums (particularly the Museum of Tolerance in L.A. which I went to on a field trip) use the terms Nazi and German a little to interchangeably for my comfort.  A German, by definition, is a resident or descendant of a resident of Germany.  I am proud to be a German.  A nazi, by definition, is someone who prescribes to an anti-semitic, nationalist-socialist ideology.  Furthermore, a Nazi, to me, is an advocate of Hitler's policies, including those in regard to the Holocaust.  Now, my grandmother and her brother and mother lived on a farm in Germany during the 1930's and 1940's.  Her entire family, with the exception of one of her uncles and great-aunts, was anti-Hitler.  Does this make her a Nazi?  She did not even know about the Holocaust until she came to America in 1954.  My great-uncle, her brother, was an officer for several weeks, serving not in the death camps or guarding hitler or beating civilians, but involuntarily serving a boring guard duty in Poland.  When his squadron was en route to defend Berlin, he jumped out of a moving vehicle to escape, feeling that Americans and the Allies represented liberty from Hitler, whom he had quietly opposed from the beginning.  (He and my grandmother were particularly upset with his restriction of Catechism).  He nearly died, pretended to be dead, and the car kept moving.  It turns out he got out right before they began branding all the soldiers as S.S.  He was not a Nazi, in my opinion, that vile label is reserved for the pigs at the top of the chain of command.  Now I've given my rant.  Feel free to comment.
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2012, 09:47:03 pm »
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What do you consider holocaust deniers?  Because its a very touchy subject to me as a German Catholic with Jewish family members.  I believe that, unlike in most books, Jews, though specifically targeted for destruction, were not the only ones killed, and represent only (bad word choice) about 6 million of the 18 million people killed in the Holocaust.  Nazis would've gone on to kill the Catholics, (which they began to), and would've eventually wiped out everyone who wasn't a white aryan atheist.  Furthermore, I believe that textbooks unfairly single out Germans as the sole participants in the Holocaust (when many civilians of Poland, France, Estonia, Latvia, and more participated voluntarily in the execution of thousands of Jews and other races).  Finally, books and museums (particularly the Museum of Tolerance in L.A. which I went to on a field trip) use the terms Nazi and German a little to interchangeably for my comfort.  A German, by definition, is a resident or descendant of a resident of Germany.  I am proud to be a German.  A nazi, by definition, is someone who prescribes to an anti-semitic, nationalist-socialist ideology.  Furthermore, a Nazi, to me, is an advocate of Hitler's policies, including those in regard to the Holocaust.  Now, my grandmother and her brother and mother lived on a farm in Germany during the 1930's and 1940's.  Her entire family, with the exception of one of her uncles and great-aunts, was anti-Hitler.  Does this make her a Nazi?  She did not even know about the Holocaust until she came to America in 1954.  My great-uncle, her brother, was an officer for several weeks, serving not in the death camps or guarding hitler or beating civilians, but involuntarily serving a boring guard duty in Poland.  When his squadron was en route to defend Berlin, he jumped out of a moving vehicle to escape, feeling that Americans and the Allies represented liberty from Hitler, whom he had quietly opposed from the beginning.  (He and my grandmother were particularly upset with his restriction of Catechism).  He nearly died, pretended to be dead, and the car kept moving.  It turns out he got out right before they began branding all the soldiers as S.S.  He was not a Nazi, in my opinion, that vile label is reserved for the pigs at the top of the chain of command.  Now I've given my rant.  Feel free to comment.

Jersey, I don't think there is a soul on here who holds the Germans as a whole responsible for the terrible actions of the Nazis.  Okay, maybe a few really stupid troll posters, but I think anyone who is anywhere near rational does not.
But yeah, the Holocaust was a wholly horrible event for more reasons than the fact that it targeted Jew and it was flamed on by people, both in Germany and outside of it, who enabled Hitler's plan.

But yeah though, I agree that it is unfair that Germans as a whole get the Nazi label or that people continue to joke about them all as Nazis or nationalistic types or people who wear black suits and shot "heil!".
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 09:48:50 pm by MechaRepublican »Logged



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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 12:13:57 am »
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Jersey, question.  You complain about use of "German" and "Nazi" interchangeably during the context of the Second World War, arguing that it leads people to attribute what the Germans as a whole did in the war with the actions of the NSDAP.

A.  Isn't it fair to do so in the context of the war?  Referring to the Wehrmacht as "German soldiers" or "German forces" makes a lot more sense than saying "Nazi forces," given that they were the army of, well, Germany, which happened to be under a Nazi regime.  I'm not arguing for collective blame, but I am saying that the actions that happened in the war can't be brushed away with "the Nazis did it," because many atrocities were committed by people that weren't in the Nazi Party or, in fact, weren't even Germans themselves (such as Lithuanian, Romanian, etc. Nazi auxiliaries, collaborationists all over Europe...).

B.  Do you take issue to people referring to the Imperial Japanese Army or Imperial Japanese Navy as "Japanese" rather than "Imperial Japanese forces" or whatever?  Sometimes people end up with this weird "the war against the Nazis and the Japanese" phraseology that implies that with the Germans we were only at war with the bad lot running the show but in the Pacific theater we were at war with the entire Japanese nation.
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 04:38:40 pm »
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I really doubt that a Catholic like Hitler wanted to kill all Catholics.

As for Holocaust denial, here's the what Oskar Gröning a SS soldier turned into a clerk in Auschwitz (sorting the confiscated possessions of murdered prisoners)

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I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there

or Oswald Kaduk a SS guard who took active part in the attrocities.

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(Interviewer) Today there are many people that say Auschwitz was a lie, that nobody at all was gassed.
(Kaduk) I have to say, I do not consider these people normal. We have to stick to the truth. There are people denying it, but what happened, happened, and it is not up for dispute."

If not even the people commiting the crime denies it, why should anybody else?
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 05:09:28 pm »
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I really doubt that a Catholic like Hitler wanted to kill all Catholics.

I don't think Hitler did consider himself a Catholic.
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 05:18:24 pm »
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I really doubt that a Catholic like Hitler wanted to kill all Catholics.

I don't think Hitler did consider himself a Catholic.
You are right. But killing Catholics would have meant wiping out most of the population in Southern Germany, so it was always out of the question.
There is no evidence that he ever had such plans. And when it comes to Hitler historians have left no stone untouched.
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 05:37:03 pm »
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I really doubt that a Catholic like Hitler wanted to kill all Catholics.

I don't think Hitler did consider himself a Catholic.

As he stayed member of the Church his entire life, yes he were Catholic (like much of the rest of the Nazi elite), something not even the Catholic Church try to deny.
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 09:06:06 pm »
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Jersey, question.  You complain about use of "German" and "Nazi" interchangeably during the context of the Second World War, arguing that it leads people to attribute what the Germans as a whole did in the war with the actions of the NSDAP.

A.  Isn't it fair to do so in the context of the war?  Referring to the Wehrmacht as "German soldiers" or "German forces" makes a lot more sense than saying "Nazi forces," given that they were the army of, well, Germany, which happened to be under a Nazi regime.  I'm not arguing for collective blame, but I am saying that the actions that happened in the war can't be brushed away with "the Nazis did it," because many atrocities were committed by people that weren't in the Nazi Party or, in fact, weren't even Germans themselves (such as Lithuanian, Romanian, etc. Nazi auxiliaries, collaborationists all over Europe...).

B.  Do you take issue to people referring to the Imperial Japanese Army or Imperial Japanese Navy as "Japanese" rather than "Imperial Japanese forces" or whatever?  Sometimes people end up with this weird "the war against the Nazis and the Japanese" phraseology that implies that with the Germans we were only at war with the bad lot running the show but in the Pacific theater we were at war with the entire Japanese nation.

A. German army, yes.  But to label everyone of those men, who were drafted at sixteen years of age, as Nazis, monsters, and ruthless brutes, is unfair.  As I said, my opinion is that a Nazi is anyone who prescribes to the national-socialist, white supremacist, anti-Semite ideology, or who participates directly in assisting them or directly furthering their cause.

B. I am saying that everyone labels the nazis as the worst people ever, when, as you said, Japanese forces were as ruthless, and nearly as brutal.  Also, the Chinese killed their own in Teananmen Square; none of these get the coverage that the Holocaust did.  The horrors that are occurring in the middle east and Africa are disgusting; children being raped and killed by the thousands like animals.  Meanwhile, the Soviet soldiers raped over two million German girls - and of the ten million casualties of the March on Berlin, three mullion where girls who were killed during (or committed suicide after) rape by Soviet soldiers.  Meanwhile, countless similar atrocities were committed during the Japanese internment here in the U.S., livelihoods were destroyed, and more.  Now, I really don't like it when people cry "racism" or "unfair", but these other stories deserve to be told.  My grandmother often tells me of a neighbor caught listening to BBC on the radio, who was carted away never to be seen again.  She also tells me of Moraccon soldiers burning her neighborhood to the ground, as she watched in horror, six years old, cowering behind a cow in her barn.  The Moroccan soldiers also were infamous for the rape of many young girls, and for intentionally leaving their prints on the bedsheets of houses they would pillage in order to leave fingerprints.  She tells me of a girlfriend she had growing up, who slept with her mother in the same bed to hide from the enemy soldiers.  The Moroccans came into her house, and the girl fled from the room, jumping out a window to escape.  She broke her leg, and it never healed right.  My Oma has recounted how she once observed the doctors re-breaking the leg, and yet nothing they could do would help.  The girl died at eighty scarred emotionally and physically handicapped for life, with a limp for nearly seventy years.

Are you starting to see why my grandmother maintains a streak of disdain for African-Americans?
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 09:08:53 pm »
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I really doubt that a Catholic like Hitler wanted to kill all Catholics.

Well, what would he have done when he was finished with the Jews?  Sat down and read a book?  He would've descended further and further into insanity, wiping out everyone who he deemed unfit for life, or who got in his way.  Who would be his new scapegoat?  The gypsies?  No, not a high enough population.  The Turks?  Not really present in modern Germany.
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 09:13:32 pm »
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What is this.
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 09:23:35 pm »
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What is this.

What is what?  My Al Pacino speech, or these fine people I am conversing with?
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 09:27:42 pm »
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What is what?

The genuinely bizarre and utterly novel argument that you just spewed out.
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 09:36:40 pm »
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What is what?

The genuinely bizarre and utterly novel argument that you just spewed out.

Think about it from the standpoint of a crazy person.  Or even any dictator.  We need someone to blame when things get bad.  The Jews were scapegoats for centuries.  Who would the government blame if they succeeded in wiping them out?  If it still doesn't make sense, put on your crazy cap.
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 09:39:14 pm »
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What is what?

The genuinely bizarre and utterly novel argument that you just spewed out.

I was about to PM you about this thread.  I've read six books about Nazi Germany within the last three months, and...well...as you can see from my earlier response, I wasn't about to touch most of this s**t.  You can if you want.
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 09:42:40 pm »
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What is what?

The genuinely bizarre and utterly novel argument that you just spewed out.

I was about to PM you about this thread.  I've read six books about Nazi Germany within the last three months, and...well...as you can see from my earlier response, I wasn't about to touch most of this s**t.  You can if you want.

Which argument?  If you're referring to my grandmas prejudism, I'm not defending it, just offering explanation.  I'm tired and moving on of it's something else.
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 10:06:21 pm »
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Again, I agree it's kind of unfair how history subjects are presented sometimes.

As someone who had a pretty proud Ukrainian American AP World History teacher and later Holocaust Studies teacher I do admit that I am often troubled by how less of a focus that History teachers (at least in America) put on other horrible events.  When I was 17-19 years old I was obsessed with learning about the Soviet Union, especially about the Stalin era atrocities.  When I learned that Stalin actually killed like a gazillion people as well, maybe even more than Hitler, I was shocked and wondering why my history teachers tended to shy away from him.
I asked my AP World History teacher why in my previous history studies Stalin's crimes were scarcely mentioned while people glossed over Hitler's like he was the Babe Ruth of genociders (yeah, I know, a little dorky).  My teacher looked at me and laughed, then she responded: "I really have no idea.  Frankly, I would love for every American schoolchild to know what he did."
Admittedly, I myself wondered, as someone who is part German and part Irish, why American History teachers talked about the Know Nothing Movement, probably one of the few American political movements that got the closest to all out fascism, was talked about for like five minutes while we spent 7 months on slavery (for the record, I am not at all denying the horribleness of slavery.  Slavery was extremely horrible and no amount of repenting from Americans will ever make it right.  Even if we gave every African American $7 million it still wouldn't make things right.  Just thought there was a little too much focus.  Sure, more focus should go to it than say a temporary thing like the Know Nothing Movement that was nowhere as oppressive or bad, but I would've appreciated more than an index card factsheet quiz over it with statements like "the Know Nothing Movement was opposed to immigration").  Or why learning about Andrew Jackson was so goddamn important but Grover Cleveland was just "that President who was elected to non-consecutive terms and thus made the Presidential Portrait room look really weird!" or William Howard Taft was known simply as "His Royal Fatassness".
I've come to learn that history is mostly what people make of it, and considering that most of the population is like "Oh my gawd!  Who needs to know about the past!?  That is like so lame!  I think I'll go over to my friends house and play the new gay Halo game/paint my nails (gender neutral mockery)"!  Which is really a shame because if you don't know your history you are doomed to repeat it.  I mean holy hell Batman, under Bush (and now Obama) people are scoffing at privacy rights, DESPITE THE FACT THAT PRIVACY RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED MULTIPLE TIMES IN AMERICAN HISTORY.  People want to tell themselves "well, we'll never become Nazis so History is not important."
But as you have pointed out, people don't have to be Nazis in order to be evil.  Evil is something that any person of any nationality of any race of any religion of any creed of any economic class is capable of.  Those who believe otherwise are incredibly naive.  Sure, the idea that the American government would kill millions of it's own citizens may seem absurd to more than a few of us one here due to lack of history education, but how many Germans in 1912 do you think thought it was possible that their government would actively seek out and attempt to exterminate various ethnic/religious/whatever groups?  Hell man, how many Germans in 1928 were thinking "oh my god, the government is so close to wanting to just go out and kill millions!"
So sure, you might say that America is a constitutional nation, a nation of civil rights and liberties and nowhere near the weakness of state as Weimar Germany.  Granted, but that doesn't mean "KAPOOF!" we are safe from all evil and corrupt politicians.
I guess the best explanation I can come up with is that some subjects in history just sound a lot sexier than others (yes I know that invites some screams of "OMG YOU BIGOT!" but hey, it's just a theory).  Or that Hitler and the Nazis were just so out there, just so OMG COMIC BOOK VILLIANRY! that people in the education industry tend to put more of a heavy emphasis on them because they had bitching eyepatches or whatev as opposed to the Soviets who wore like boring corduroy green army outfits and furry hats that had the red Texaco star thing on them or something.

But now I'm just flat out f***ing ranting here.  I'm sure I was about to make a point or what not, but I guess I got too caught up in my utter disgust at the average American high school/college student's disgust of history.  God, those ingrates just really piss me off!

As for your last comment, understandably a lot of people will probably get pissed off reading that.  But I do get the context of what you're saying there.  There will probably be seven or eight more people who are like "OMG!" before this post is sent to the thread, which will probably be a shame.  I for one don't have a disdain for African Americans, but I can understand how anti-(insert ethnicity here) bigotry can be strong with a person due to previous experiences.  This is a pretty widely accepted psychological truth here.  It's not a very popular truth, and I might get brownie points taken away because of pointing it out, but there is some truth that a lot of racial/ethnic resentment stems from a perceived injustice from the other group.  I guess it's easy for me, coming from a family of White Southerners, to relate to situational circumstances that might make racism attractive to some.  Again, for those who might take that statement out of context, I DO NOT SUPPORT RACISM, I just can understand how one can develop racist ideas out of life experiences.
But yeah, obviously there are a lot of evil dicks out there who have killed as much if not more than the Nazis did.  And yes, it's really bizarre that a lot of teachers ignore the crimes of these other people.  Yes, if I were a history teacher I would put a bunch of focus on evil dicks of all stripes.  And yes, American education makes me cry like a little 8 year old girl sometimes.

Oh god, I spent like an hour writing this out and I have an Advanced Federal Income Taxation test tomorrow at nine.  God, I'll never graduate with this kind of slackery.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 11:12:30 pm by MechaRepublican »Logged



23:19   Xahar   you're literally a white dude Mechaman
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 11:23:32 pm »

too long; but since I'm the mod for this board, did read

As for why Know Nothingism gets short shrift in U.S. History classes, I suspect that being one of the precursors of the Republican Party may have something to do with it.  Indeed, the paramilitary Wide Awakes the Know Nothings had in 1856 had by 1860 considerably expanded into the Wide Awakes of the Republican Party.  The Wide Awakes were to some degree comparable to the Nazi SA, complete with their own torchlight parades.



Of course, you can draw comparisons out too much, and the Republicans were far from the only party organization in 1860 to have a paramilitary element attached to it.

 
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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2012, 11:48:41 pm »
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too long; but since I'm the mod for this board, did read

As for why Know Nothingism gets short shrift in U.S. History classes, I suspect that being one of the precursors of the Republican Party may have something to do with it.  Indeed, the paramilitary Wide Awakes the Know Nothings had in 1856 had by 1860 considerably expanded into the Wide Awakes of the Republican Party.  The Wide Awakes were to some degree comparable to the Nazi SA, complete with their own torchlight parades.



Of course, you can draw comparisons out too much, and the Republicans were far from the only party organization in 1860 to have a paramilitary element attached to it.

 

Meh, that is very true.  I've become like a rant machine today for some reason.  I don't really remember what my motivation was for posting all of that BS anyway.  Maybe boredom or acceptance that I'll never graduate with a 3.0 GPA?

Very true.
Both parties benefitted a great deal from paramilitary like organizations to rally the party faithful to the voting booths or what not.

Quite fascinating really.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 12:27:09 am by MechaRepublican »Logged



23:19   Xahar   you're literally a white dude Mechaman
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