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politicus
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2012, 02:25:15 am »
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I really doubt that a Catholic like Hitler wanted to kill all Catholics.

I don't think Hitler did consider himself a Catholic.

As he stayed member of the Church his entire life, yes he were Catholic (like much of the rest of the Nazi elite), something not even the Catholic Church try to deny.
But the question was not whether he was a member of the church, but whether he considered himself a Catholic. And Hitler did not think of himself as Catholic - or even Christian. He was highly negative to the entire Christian cultural heritage of Europe, which he saw as leading to weakness.
The leading Nazis where basically either neo-pagan romantics or atheists.

To Ingemann:
It is a bit ironic that you as a Dane equals membership of an established church with selfidentifying as a Christian. Given that more than 80% of Denmarks population are members of the established Lutheran church most of them simply because their families have always been church members and only half of them believing in God. The number of Danes that are church members without considering themselves Christian is very substantial.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 05:08:12 am by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 08:54:14 am »
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The leading Nazis where basically either neo-pagan romantics or atheists.


And by "the leading Nazis" you mean Heinrich Himmler, right?  The actual proportion of people with Himmler's silly neo-pagan views in the leadership of the Nazi Party is grossly overstated by people who like to downplay the widespread collaboration of the Christian Churches (both Protestant and Catholic) with the regime, especially Hitler's advocacy of a "Positive Christianity" that celebrated an Aryanized version of the faith and the coordination (Gleichschaltung) of the Protestant Churches in Germany under the German Christian movement.  Even the Catholic hierarchy didn't raise a fuss as Germany plowed into Poland and systematically wiped out Polish Catholic clergy.  The National Socialist regime was compatible with the desires of many Catholics and Protestants alike to end the immorality and left politics of Weimar and restore Germany to military greatness and morals, while outside of a few brave souls (Niemoller, for example), the clergy went right along with him to war.  The myth of large-scale resistance from the Catholic and Protestant Churches derives mostly from the postwar CDU, as the CDU needed to assert its legitimacy as a party centered in Catholic tradition, by making the Nazis seem irreligious and the Churches as a paragon of moral resistance.
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2012, 09:08:18 am »
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What is what?

The genuinely bizarre and utterly novel argument that you just spewed out.

I was about to PM you about this thread.  I've read six books about Nazi Germany within the last three months, and...well...as you can see from my earlier response, I wasn't about to touch most of this s**t.  You can if you want.

Which argument?  If you're referring to my grandmas prejudism, I'm not defending it, just offering explanation.  I'm tired and moving on of it's something else.

Nah, I suppose it's your assertation that German Catholics were at risk from a Nazi-mandated genocide.
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2012, 09:08:34 am »
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The leading Nazis where basically either neo-pagan romantics or atheists.

And by "the leading Nazis" you mean Heinrich Himmler, right? 
He was one of them, but certainly not the only one.

The point is most top Nazi leaders where basically anti-Christian including Hitler. Ruling a predominantly Christian nation he of course tried to co-opt the Christian churches and was very successful in doing so. But that doesn't make him a Christian.

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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2012, 09:15:45 am »
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Rather, the intellectual pedigree of Nazism is deeply steeped in 'silly neo-Paganism' and bizarre mysticism. Surely, enough New Ageish books have been written about the Thule society's links to the early (NS)DAP and so on for that to be not much of a controversial statement. In a broader sense, I think it's fair to say that fascism's , and certainly National-Socialism's, unconcious is in a profound way rooted in a Neo-Pagan ethos.

Whether or not catholic and protestant German churches 'collaborated' with the Nazis has nothing to do with the question about the mental landscape of Nazism. Nazism is not an ideology especially inspired by any form of Christian rhetoric of thought.
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2012, 10:23:45 am »
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and would've eventually wiped out everyone who wasn't a white aryan atheist. 

Just in defense of my fello heathens Hitler and the Nazi state was against atheism.

"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years." - Adolf Hitler 1933.
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 12:00:38 pm »
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and would've eventually wiped out everyone who wasn't a white Aryan atheist.

Just in defense of my fellow heathens Hitler and the Nazi state was against atheism.

"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany's fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years." - Adolf Hitler 1933.

Hitler defended Christianity in public and ordered Goering and Goebbels to remain in their churches. The reason is pretty obvious. Germany was an overwhelmingly Christian nation and he didn't think a new party religion such as the SS myth or Rosenberg's Myth of the Twentieth Century could adequately replace it.

But the diaries of Albert Speer and published notes from his private secretary Martin Bormann proves that he personally was very anti-Christian. Which is only logical given the ethos of Nazism.

Bormann's notes are published in English as "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944" by Farrar, Straus and Young (1953) or "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944" from Oxford University Press.

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
 
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure". (p 43)

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State". (p 49-52)
 
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity".
 
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea". (p 63-65)
 
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease". (p 118 & 119)
 
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely wholehearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics". (p 119 & 120)
 
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold" ." (p 278)
 
In his memoirs "Inside the Third Reich" Albert Speer quotes Hitler for saying:

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japaneses, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness"

It is ironic that Hitler actually said, that Germany would have been better off if Islam had conquered Europe after the battle of Tours, and that Germany had the misfortune of having the wrong religion. Neo-nazis do not like that quote!

Basically Hitler had a purely instrumental view of religion. If it furthered his agenda it was a good religion, if it didn't it was bad. There is no indication that he had any real religious beliefs himself. But plenty that he hated Christianity "the faith of the meek".
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 12:05:54 pm by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2012, 01:44:17 pm »
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This might be asomething I should edit into my previous post, but what also seems important to keep in mind about nazism is its essential eclecticism. Fascism isn't the culmination of one tradition of thinking in the West, it has many contributive factors: romanticism and nationalism, side by side with mysticist tendencies, strains of Darwinian thought and the sort of anti-Semitism that for centuries was the dark flipside of Catholicism. Perhaps most deeply of all, it's characterised by a profound irrationalism, an anti-modernism.

Fascism, no matter how loosely or strictly one chooses to understand that term,  in short is the only ideology that could unite people as diverse as Leon Degrelle and Julius Evola, Rosenberg and Franco.
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2012, 02:33:02 pm »
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What we're reacting to is the way Jersey and politicus are trying to turn the collaborators and perpetrators of Nazi atrocities into victims and potential victims of said atrocities.  According to the 1939 census, only 3% of Germany was atheist and only 2% were members of "neopagan" cults.  The German nation, an overwhelmingly Christian nation, enthusiastically participated or turned a blind eye to Nazi atrocities and war crimes.  Trying to shift the blame onto only Hitler, or only Hitler's inner circle, or only the SS is propagandistic whitewashing of the first order.
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2012, 03:04:25 pm »
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What we're reacting to is the way Jersey and politicus are trying to turn the collaborators and perpetrators of Nazi atrocities into victims and potential victims of said atrocities.  According to the 1939 census, only 3% of Germany was atheist and only 2% were members of "neopagan" cults.  The German nation, an overwhelmingly Christian nation, enthusiastically participated or turned a blind eye to Nazi atrocities and war crimes.  Trying to shift the blame onto only Hitler, or only Hitler's inner circle, or only the SS is propagandistic whitewashing of the first order.

I guess I must've had a way different interpretation of Jersey's posts or something.

I thought he was saying how unfair an image German people get because of the Holocaust, not trying to remove the German equation from Hitler's rise to power.
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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2012, 06:22:38 pm »
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What we're reacting to is the way Jersey and politicus are trying to turn the collaborators and perpetrators of Nazi atrocities into victims and potential victims of said atrocities.  According to the 1939 census, only 3% of Germany was atheist and only 2% were members of "neopagan" cults.  The German nation, an overwhelmingly Christian nation, enthusiastically participated or turned a blind eye to Nazi atrocities and war crimes.  Trying to shift the blame onto only Hitler, or only Hitler's inner circle, or only the SS is propagandistic whitewashing of the first order.

I guess I must've had a way different interpretation of Jersey's posts or something.

I thought he was saying how unfair an image German people get because of the Holocaust, not trying to remove the German equation from Hitler's rise to power.

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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2012, 08:10:13 pm »
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There is no reason, no reason whatsoever, to believe that any group that was not already subject to systematic persecution would have become the victims of outright genocide in the event of a Nazi victory. Claiming otherwise is a clear attempt to minimise the significance of the genocide that actually happened, and so is (interestingly enough) quite appropriate for a thread with this title.

This is a non-negotiable position, by the way. Anyone who argues otherwise basically disqualifies themselves from speaking about the subject.

When it comes to awareness of genocide and other atrocities things are quite clear as well; I refer any doubters to Martin Broszat's Bavaria Project (and will point out when it was done) and will leave it at that.

The issue of non-Germans getting their hands bloody has been raised, I think. It's true that this did happen (look up what happened to the Lithuanian Jews if you want nightmares) and that this has had less attention than is exactly desirable, especially in the countries in question. But this does not actually make the actions of Germans better in any meaningful way.

The Nazism and religion thing is less important by an almost infinite degree (except to morons), but has a very simple answer: most leading Nazis were not religious by any sane definition of the word, but they generally kept up their church memberships for the reasons that most other Germans did (and most West Germans do), and this included the mustachioed country member himself. Which means that he was a Catholic by any reasonable definition. If you aren't happy about this fact, try to remember that plenty of other murderous despots were quite openly atheistic. Personally I can't think of anything that matters less than the religious affiliation of mass murderers, but the internet is a strange place filled with strange people.
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« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2012, 02:54:22 am »
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What we're reacting to is the way Jersey and politicus are trying to turn the collaborators and perpetrators of Nazi atrocities into victims and potential victims of said atrocities.
And how on earth did I do that?

Trying to shift the blame onto only Hitler, or only Hitler's inner circle, or only the SS is propagandistic whitewashing of the first order.
Nobody did that!

I am quite shocked that you can read my posts in this light! During the discussion of the subject of this thread the question came up whether Hitler (and related to that the rest of the Nazi elite) where Christians. I was simply pointing out that Hitler can not by any meaningfull standard be considered a Christian since he despised the Christian faith and its influence on European culture (obviously also including the influence of the Catholic church as the main Christian church).

You owe me an apology. There is a limit to what you can accuse other posters of without a shred of evidence.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:41:21 am by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2012, 03:27:19 am »
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The Nazism and religion thing is less important by an almost infinite degree (except to morons)
Since Judeo-Christian ethics (with its idea of compassion for the weak/poor) is fundamental to Western culture the Nazi elites contempt for this tradition is highly relevant in a debate of holocaust. Basically Hitler wanted to break with the entire foundation of Western culture and replace it with a new ethic where might is always right and being strong and ruthless was idealised in an extreme way. The breach with Christian based culture (not religion) is fundamental to understanding the holocaust.
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« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2012, 03:51:59 am »
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I disagree.  He was a power mad nationalist who hated "lessers" so much he was willing to kill them, got the means to do so, and then did.  I see no reason to believe he would one day, had he managed to achieve peace somehow*, start rounding up German Christians (or specifically Catholics) to do the same thing.



*which would have been really hard to do at any point in time for a Nazi lead Germany, once certain dominoes had fallen, there was no looking back.  The best case scenario for Germany after Sep '39 was a forever war, or, MAYBE if they built nukes before, say, 43 and was able to make peace with the Commonwealth/US (setting up a Cold War) freeing them up to rid eastern Europe of Slavs, Roma and other undesirables.
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« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2012, 04:06:29 am »
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I disagree.
With whom? Jersey? Please specify when you are commenting below a post with a different topic. No reason to add to the confusion in this thread.

 I see no reason to believe he would one day, had he managed to achieve peace somehow, start rounding up German Christians (or specifically Catholics) to do the same thing..
Neither do I.
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« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2012, 04:21:44 am »
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I disagree with most everything you said in your post above mine.
Since Judeo-Christian ethics (with its idea of compassion for the weak/poor) is fundamental to Western culture
I disagree with this.  It might be in The Book, but it clearly isn't followed all that well, then or now.  I wish it were, but it's not.  Humans are selfish (just like ALL animals) and religion might try to correct that, but it's almost always a losing fight.
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the Nazi elites contempt for this tradition is highly relevant in a debate of holocaust. Basically Hitler wanted to break with the entire foundation of Western culture and replace it with a new ethic where might is always right and being strong and ruthless was idealised in an extreme way.
I'll grant that he may have wanted that, but he knew he couldn't achieve it.  Maybe plant the seeds.  Maybe alter it a bit in his image, but he was smart enough to know he couldn't wash it down the drain.  That was his power base.  It would be like a current important GOP politician saying "ya know what, this religion thing is stupid and we should use logic, reason and science to affect change in government."  It ain't going to happen now, and it wasn't going to happen then.
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The breach with Christian based culture (not religion) is fundamental to understanding the holocaust.
Christians, historically as a group, have had no problem hating "others".  European Christians had their Jews (and other "browns"), American Christians had their black slaves (and Catholics and Jews).  Of course there are always exceptions.  Even some Nazi's helped Jews to escape, but Hitler and the Nazi's didn't have to (and didn't) "breach with Christianity" to convince the Germans (and, to be fair, French, Norwegians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, etc) to round up the Jews (and others).
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« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2012, 06:51:38 am »
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Somebody has already pointed this out, but exterminating the Catholics would've been a hell of a task for Hitler.  Before World War II, the Catholic population was 33% of Germany.  That's like a third of the population of the country he is in charge of, something I'm pretty sure would be hard for even an evil genius like Hitler to get away with.

Killing the Catholics off throughout Europe would've made killing off the Jews look like a piece of crumb cake.
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« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2012, 06:53:59 am »
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Why the bizarre hypotheticals?
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« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2012, 07:12:15 am »
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Why the bizarre hypotheticals?

I was just addressing how impractical it would've been for Hitler to kill the Catholics.

I apologize if that point seems "bizarre".
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« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2012, 10:09:43 am »
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I must say that this is the first time I've come across anything as insane as the suggestion that Hitler was actively scheming to exterminate or even persecute in any way the Catholic population of Western Europe. I can't even see how anyone could have that idea.
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« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2012, 11:17:51 am »
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I'm honestly curious to hear holocaust deniers explain where 6 million Jews mysteriously vanished to.
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« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2012, 12:35:36 pm »
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I must say that this is the first time I've come across anything as insane as the suggestion that Hitler was actively scheming to exterminate or even persecute in any way the Catholic population of Western Europe. I can't even see how anyone could have that idea.

To be fair, there were Catholics killed in the Holocaust.  However, I wouldn't really call it an "extermination" of Catholics or that Hitler was planning on killing them all.
A lot of the Catholics that were killed in the Holocaust were mostly clergymen, bishops, and laypeople who voiced opposition to the Nazi regime.  And of course those who happened to have a fraction Jewish blood (like a lot of other groups).
There are some people in the Nazi Government who favored shutting down the Catholic Hierarchy, like in 1941 when authorities decreed the dissolution of all monasteries and abbeys in the Third Reich (many of which were already occupied and secularized by SS authorities), however Hitler himself ended that decree on July 30th, 1941, fearing that the increasing protests of the Catholic population of Germany would result in passive rebellions that would harm the war effort on the Eastern Front.
Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs were arguably not Catholic, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he was an atheist or a neo-paganist.  Instead I would say that he had his own religion that brought in elements from pretty much everywhere that was crafted into the Nazi Party.  A religion that he wanted taught in every Protestant and Catholic Christian Church in the Third Reich.  In other words, Hitler was for the consolidation of Church and State, a principle that is wholly at odds with the 1st Amendment in the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution.

I think it would be most accurate to say that Hitler wanted to subvert the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2012, 02:11:32 pm »
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Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs were arguably not Catholic, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he was an atheist or a neo-paganist. Instead I would say that he had his own religion that brought in elements from pretty much everywhere that was crafted into the Nazi Party.

That is one way of looking at it, but given that the German nation and the supremacy of the Aryan race was what Hitler ultimately worshipped (with himself as "high priest"). I think it is more accurate to say he was an atheist with a political faith, worldview and mythology. But unlike Himmler or Rosenberg he never wanted that faith articulated in a religious language or mythology. And God certainly didn't play any part in his wordview, but then again there are religions without a God and extreme Nationalism does have some pseudo-religious traits.

A religion that he wanted taught in every Protestant and Catholic Christian Church in the Third Reich.  In other words, Hitler was for the consolidation of Church and State... I think it would be most accurate to say that Hitler wanted to subvert the Roman Catholic Church.
That's what I meant when I said he had an instrumental view of religion. It was a tool to serve his ideological goals.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 02:14:15 pm by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2013, 09:02:36 pm »
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I really doubt that a Catholic like Hitler wanted to kill all Catholics.

I don't think Hitler did consider himself a Catholic.

As he stayed member of the Church his entire life, yes he were Catholic (like much of the rest of the Nazi elite), something not even the Catholic Church try to deny.

You seem to have a little bit of an anti-organized-religion chip on your shoulder, as most people who try to claim that Hitler or most of his followers were Christians at all usually do.  They were very outspoken against organized religion and professed atheism.  That's a historical fact...
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