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Author Topic: Is undue emphasis given to the Jews killed in the Holocaust?  (Read 1599 times)
dead0man
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2012, 11:30:35 pm »
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Who would we be rounding up and gassing?  Mexicans?  I know you were just spitballing, but the idea that the US could or would mirror what the Nazis did is absurd.
We didn't have to use gas to kill 99% of the Native Americans who were here.
Indeed...because we didn't kill 99%...disease killed the vast majority of them...and it was nowhere near 99% anyway.  I'm not even sure where you got that number (possibly your ass?).  But yes, we, for the most part, treated the natives here horribly.  Just like Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Arabs, and pretty much anybody else that ever moved to a new place in mass.  It doesn't make it right, it's not an excuse, our ancestors did them wrong and we should feel bad for it, remember it and try not to do it again.
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2012, 04:17:21 am »
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Shoah has never really caught on.

A pity, as I find it far more lyrical than a word like "holocaust".

In France, Shoah is actually the most commonly used term.
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2012, 03:48:21 pm »
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Shoah has never really caught on.

A pity, as I find it far more lyrical than a word like "holocaust".

If you must have a lyrical word to describe genocide, how about Porajmos?  While it is difficult to be certain, as pre-War estimates of the Roma population are sketchy, the available evidence indicates that as a percentage of their European population, the Roma suffered at least as much as the Jews, and quite possibly more.

At the end of WWII there were fewer than 1000 Jews still living in Poland (and I believe fewer than 20,000 even today).  Today there are over half a million Roma living in Romania (and that's just what's reported on the census; it's probably substanially higher given the stigma/their semi-nomadic lifestyle).  Yours is an absurd claim by any measure, unless you're doing things like including Russian Jews that the Nazis couldn't get to, which is more than a little silly.
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2012, 06:31:05 pm »

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At the end of WWII there were fewer than 1000 Jews still living in Poland (and I believe fewer than 20,000 even today).  Today there are over half a million Roma living in Romania (and that's just what's reported on the census; it's probably substantially higher given the stigma/their semi-nomadic lifestyle).  Yours is an absurd claim by any measure, unless you're doing things like including Russian Jews that the Nazis couldn't get to, which is more than a little silly.

You do realize that the Holocaust, both Jewish and Romani, was far less intense in Romania (and some of the other German allies) than in German-occupied Poland, don't you?  An honest comparison requires using the same territory.  Considerably more than 1,000 Polish Jews survived WWII, but few were willing to remain in Poland after the war and they had an option in where to go that the Roma did not.  Also as you point out, counting the Roma is difficult, and that was just as true then as it is now.  For example, the range of estimates of the percentage of Roma living in Yugoslavia before the war that survived ranges from a high of three-fourths to a low of one-tenth.

The Nazis had as much use for the Roma as they did the Jews.  As far the Einsatzgruppen were concerned they both were a good stopping place for a bullet.
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2012, 07:54:24 pm »
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The precise number of surviving Jews in Poland is unknown, but it's believed to be 300 000, through it may be higher (I have heard as high as 600 000, which would mean 80% of Polish Jews died in the Holocaust). But many decided to leave after the War, many followed the German refugees west from where they mostly emigrated to Israel and USA. But Poland still had a viable Jewish population to the late 60ties where the Polish government deported most of the remnant Jewish population.
As for the Gypsies, the Holocaust was less hard on them for several reason, most didn't live in German occupied territory, a lot of Gypsies kept low profile with their ethnic origin, and the states they lived in didn't have the best register. As example we can see Hungary's Gypsi population which swing significant decade to decade, depending on the local attitude toward them. This also make statistic over the how much of the Gypsi population perished in the holocaust, a conservative guess would be a third, but more likely half (against two thirds of the Jewish population of Europe) through more is not impossible.
So why is the genocide against the Gypsi mostly ignored?
A few guess could be, the Gypsi still live in Europe and a lot of people doesn't like them. Jews is well educated, they have a strong presence in many countries medias and they have their own state, it seem logical they are interested in reflecting over the death of 2/3 of their European population. Gypsies are poor, badly educated and only live as minority in non-Gypsi states. They have other thing to dwell on.
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2012, 03:03:16 pm »
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As someone said Hitler clearly had a certain "place in his 'heart'" for the Jews throughout the holocaust.

Of course, I feel for the non-Jewish victims aswell, and as a Jew myself, I always try to pay respects for ALL victims lost in the holocaust.

However, we did take the biggest beating (understatement) in the holocaust, and we singlehandedly lost more people than any other group. I believe 6 million Jews died, and 5 million others. (Don't quote me on this! I'm not sure if these numbers are accurate, I'm going off my memory of the last Holocaust tour I was on (Back in July of 2011 in Miami).


Ok, I just wiki'd it:

Estimated:
5.9 Million Jews died in the Holocaust
somewhere between 2-3 Soviet POWs died
1.8-2 million Ethnic Poles died


The rest of the numbers have huge gaps in between and are nowhere near the number of Jews who died.

So, no the War and massacre against my religion is not over emphasized.



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« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 04:00:57 pm »
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Well, now that I think, it's more "Non-Jewish victems are ignored" than "Jews get all the attention".
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« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2012, 04:22:08 pm »
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As someone said Hitler clearly had a certain "place in his 'heart'" for the Jews throughout the holocaust.

Of course, I feel for the non-Jewish victims aswell, and as a Jew myself, I always try to pay respects for ALL victims lost in the holocaust.

However, we did take the biggest beating (understatement) in the holocaust, and we singlehandedly lost more people than any other group. I believe 6 million Jews died, and 5 million others. (Don't quote me on this! I'm not sure if these numbers are accurate, I'm going off my memory of the last Holocaust tour I was on (Back in July of 2011 in Miami).


Ok, I just wiki'd it:

Estimated:
5.9 Million Jews died in the Holocaust
somewhere between 2-3 Soviet POWs died
1.8-2 million Ethnic Poles died


The rest of the numbers have huge gaps in between and are nowhere near the number of Jews who died.

So, no the War and massacre against my religion is not over emphasized.


Those number (except the Jewish one) has nothing to do with the Holocaust, yes you could argue the Russian POW as they were in camps, but the Poles dies because of the standard reasons in wars, starvation, disease, random attrocities etc, they wasn't placed in camps, and the death count among all other population (except Jews and Gypsys) who lived between the Oder and Dniester was the same in percent (including Germans and German allies). As such I think to call Poles victims of the holocaust is wrong.

Beside that I dislike putting the percent of dead Jews at 5,9 million, it's too specific, we usual round it up to 6 million, mostly because the real number of victims is rather unclear. We only had a approximation of how big the Jewish population were before and after the Holocaust in Eastern Europe, and while the Germans left a lot of documents behind, they never really summed the number of Jews killed (when you commit genocide, the precise number is irrelevant, because you just need to continue to you're finished)
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