Is the infraction system resulting in over-moderation?

[Californian Tony]

I wouldn't have called that trolling.  I'd describe that as a humorous post in a joking thread, not a post designed to evoke an emotional response from someone.

I'd define trolling as posting in a topic without effectively contributing to the discussion in a constructive way (or starting a topic which doesn't contribute to the board's purpose). By this definition, many common posts would fit in this category. If you have a different definition, I'd like you to develop it.

Your definition doesn't match up to most common definitions in other places on the Internet.

Well, in this case, we need to have yours.

Posting an inflamatory or disruptive post or topic with the intent of disrupting either a thread or the forum as a whole with the intent to disrupt forum discourse, usually by attempting to provoke an emotional response from a poster or posters.

I guess it all comes down to what you consider disruptive. I have a hard time considering Jmf's post as disruptive.

[Proud Lieberal from Northeast]

Christ... jmfcts did you all a great favor by ousting Derek, when you moderators had no clue.

I wonder if some more "respectable" poster had made this thread, he's be infracted?

He ousted Derek but refused to give any detail of the evidence he had.  Sure, he got the ball rolling, and we're thankful for that, but he refused to be helpful after that.  Joe was the one who got the evidence we needed for us to actually have proof that it was Derek.

All right, but would you guys take a look in this direction without Jmfcst's getting the ball rolling?

[The Mikado]

I fully support Inks etc.

[Yelnoc]

IMO, the infraction system ought to be removed.  Too much red tape.  Way too many people posting that should have been banned a long time ago.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I fully support Inks etc.

nah, the Thunderdome idea would be awesome

[So the Heroes Fall]

my main complaint is that "trolling" now includes:

1) harmless posts made with intentional humor, esp on the Forum Community Board.
2) stating opinions that are not shared among the Mods (e.g. the fellow who was infracted for creating a thread in support of the jmfcst becoming a Mod)

infracting such posts creates far too much unnecessary friction.

Whereas an example of real trolling was when I asked Andrew about living in Siberia.  That comment was not factual, was not germane to the thread, and only sought to undermine Andrew.  I disagreed with the severity of the penalty (maximum 10 death points), but it was a clear case of trolling.

But many of the other “trolling” infractions are simply unproductive in nature and do nothing but build walls of isolation – with the Mods doing most of the self imposed isolation.  In fact, many of the current Mods seem somewhat withdrawn from the normal conversation of the Forum.  It’s as if a productive member of the forum becomes a Mod and then turns himself into a librarian.

Consider the posters who have been banned permanently under the current moderation system – they would have also been banned under the prior system.  So, in effect, the current system has done nothing but cause animosity, isolated the current Mod team, and turned friends into foes.

Great post!

[So the Heroes Fall]

A big issue here I'll note is many people are being infracted for posts that had similar ones years ago with no controversy. The mods might argue "Well we were more lax back then but now such trolling isn't permitted"...except no one ever complained or was bothered. It's a lot like when Rudy Giuliani's police chief started raiding and shutting down night clubs for allowing dancing without a permit based on some archaic Prohibition-era law that hadn't been enforced in decades. What's more amusing is when an extremely annoying meme that many HAVE complained about reared its head again (those unfunny "letter three words at a time" threads), people were infracted instead for complaining about them.

It also doesn't help that it's quite arbitrary and up to the whim of one mod. I once received a 10 point infraction that from what I understand every other mod felt was unfairly harsh, yet couldn't get it reduced because the one giving it was angry at me. There have also been incidents on Forum Community where one mod lets a post remain, then another one deletes and infracts it, this is basically a case of "double jeopardy" as you can be tried again before a different judge. And a few months ago I had an over week old at the time post deleted and infracted, which suspiciously just happened after Lunar logged in for the first time in months. So basically a no longer active poster who shouldn't even be a mod anymore (seriously why hasn't he been fully removed?) go to throw in a useless swipe at me after the current mods decided to let it slide.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

Christ... jmfcts did you all a great favor by ousting Derek, when you moderators had no clue.

I wonder if some more "respectable" poster had made this thread, he's be infracted?

He ousted Derek but refused to give any detail of the evidence he had.  Sure, he got the ball rolling, and we're thankful for that, but he refused to be helpful after that.  Joe was the one who got the evidence we needed for us to actually have proof that it was Derek.

All right, but would you guys take a look in this direction without Jmfcst's getting the ball rolling?

Not as quickly as we did.  And I've acknowledged that... MULTIPLE times.  But ultimately, his attitude wasn't one of being helpful.  It was one of "HEY I FOUND DEREK! DEREK ALERT! DEREK ALERT! YOU SHOULD BAN HIM BECAUSE I THINK THIS GUY IS DEREK!" without giving evidence.  I'm glad he brought it to our attention, but ultimately, his reasons for doing didn't seem to be for the good of the forum, but to bring attention to himself.  When I asked him for specific evidence (something I think is necessary before we start banning people), he was uncooperative.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

It also doesn't help that it's quite arbitrary and up to the whim of one mod. I once received a 10 point infraction that from what I understand every other mod felt was unfairly harsh, yet couldn't get it reduced because the one giving it was angry at me.

Who was the mod?  Because you can appeal to Nym, so unless it was Nym who gave the 10 points, then it doesn't make sense that every other mod felt it was unharsh.

There have also been incidents on Forum Community where one mod lets a post remain, then another one deletes and infracts it, this is basically a case of "double jeopardy" as you can be tried again before a different judge.

There are times that we wait to take action on a post until the other moderator gives input.

And a few months ago I had an over week old at the time post deleted and infracted, which suspiciously just happened after Lunar logged in for the first time in months. So basically a no longer active poster who shouldn't even be a mod anymore (seriously why hasn't he been fully removed?) go to throw in a useless swipe at me after the current mods decided to let it slide.

Lunar hasn't moderated ANY posts recently.  What probably happened was that we had a backlog, so Nym took care of it because the moderator for that forum hadn't done anything with it.

[So the Heroes Fall]

It also doesn't help that it's quite arbitrary and up to the whim of one mod. I once received a 10 point infraction that from what I understand every other mod felt was unfairly harsh, yet couldn't get it reduced because the one giving it was angry at me.

Who was the mod?  Because you can appeal to Nym, so unless it was Nym who gave the 10 points, then it doesn't make sense that every other mod felt it was unharsh.

Joe, and I don't think Nym was modadmin back then.

There have also been incidents on Forum Community where one mod lets a post remain, then another one deletes and infracts it, this is basically a case of "double jeopardy" as you can be tried again before a different judge.

There are times that we wait to take action on a post until the other moderator gives input.

OK but I've questioned Alcon about some and he said he wouldn't have infracted any, including that recent one where I got 8 points just for posting a Family Guy video.

And a few months ago I had an over week old at the time post deleted and infracted, which suspiciously just happened after Lunar logged in for the first time in months. So basically a no longer active poster who shouldn't even be a mod anymore (seriously why hasn't he been fully removed?) go to throw in a useless swipe at me after the current mods decided to let it slide.

Lunar hasn't moderated ANY posts recently.  What probably happened was that we had a backlog, so Nym took care of it because the moderator for that forum hadn't done anything with it.

This wasn't recent, but the question still remains why Lunar is still a mod. That alone shows massive flaws in the system (Not to mention Peter and Emsworth.)

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

1. OK - I thought you meant more recently than that, so if it was that long ago, I'd need more details to be able to answer your questions on that.

2. Both myself and Mikado were in agreement to infract that post.  But there's only been maybe one or two times (and I'm not even sure it's ever happened) where an FC mod has seen a report that went uninfracted and disagreed and overturned that decision.  There HAVE been times where either myself or Mikado has infracted something and the other overrules the other and uninfracts it.  And in that case, the original infracter has let it go.

3. That's not really a flaw in the "system".  That's the schedule of the owner of the site.  I haven't seen Lunar come back and infract anything when he hasn't been active, and if he did, and we felt it was done unfairly, I have no doubt Nym would overturn it.

[Joe Republic]

1. OK - I thought you meant more recently than that, so if it was that long ago, I'd need more details to be able to answer your questions on that.

He asked Torie some question to do with emo "music" or whatever... in a thread discussing the 2010 Delaware Republican primary for US Senate.  Which was nearly two years ago, of course.  Which means the 10 points expired about a year and a half ago.  The whining has not, however.

This is the last I will say about that infraction here, because Jesus Harold Christ gtfover it, BRTD.

[So the Heroes Fall]

The point of contention was not whether the post was off topic but deserved deletion but rather the maximum offense being given. Which is what I understand all the other mods objected to, not the deletion of it at all.

And yeah that proves the flaws in the system. Without the infraction system it would've just been a long ago forgotten deleted post.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

I don't recall ever saying that I objected to that...

[So the Heroes Fall]

I never talked with you in IRC chat and I don't think you were even a mod at the time.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

I never talked with you in IRC chat and I don't think you were even a mod at the time.

I became a mod before infraction points were introduced, so if you received points for it, I was a moderator.  And what does being in IRC chat have anything to do with this?

[So the Heroes Fall]

Because that's where I had mods saying that it was unfair and basically the whole mod forum agreed.

Another flaw is how mods use their additional access to let public things that theoretically shouldn't be. For example once I was complaining about Gustaf's unfair moderation and pointed out that he frequently engaged in personal attacks on me and opebo. Inks said if that was the case I should just report them. So I went in the history and reported a ton of Gustaf posts, some of which I believe Inks actually did delete and infract meaning that they were therefore "legitimate" reports. Gustaf then whines about this on the forum even though reports are supposed to be anonymous.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... you said, "every other mod felt was unfairly harsh."  If you didn't talk to me, then you have no right to say that EVERY mod felt that way.

So, don't start making claims when you can't back them up... I was a mod, and I don't ever remember saying I felt it was unfairly harsh.  I'm not going to waste my time trying to have a discussion with you here if you're going to start making unfalse claims... I have WAY better uses of my time.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Well I can't read the mod forum either so I can only go on hearsay in the IRC. It's a nitpick regardless. I can say that I got an 8 point infraction that Alcon said didn't deserve any (though he did say it wasn't funny, but bad humor isn't infractable.), so that proves my point about the arbitrariness.

Actually I should probably just refer to the poll results, and that at least one mod has been so annoyed by the system that he resigned partially because of the results of it.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

Well, it's not a nitpick... you said something false, and you won't even come out with a straight face saying, "I was wrong."  I proved you wrong and you're trying to change the subject.  I'm willing to have an open discussion with you, but not if you're just going to use the shotgun approach and pick different fights until you finally find one you think you can win.

And with regards to Alcon, 2/3 mods found what you said to be trolling... if we requried unanimous agreement among mods on infractions, that'd probably hardly ever happen.

67% agreement for one board isn't bad - it's better than we require for most of our political descisions in this country.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Fine, I'm not going to pull a J. J. here, I was factually incorrect about some details. The general point remains though, I even have PMs from Lunar that can prove it who if you recall I often didn't get along with.

Edit: Actually I think I remembered the details now, from what I heard Dave who I appealed to himself in a PM disagreed with the infraction and wished to cut it, but for whatever reason refused to do so himself and tried to talk Joe into doing so, to which Joe stubbornly refused.

But like I said, we should just note the poll results, as well as Spade's resignation (and it's not just him, IIRC Lunar near the end of his tenure was so annoyed at the way the system was working that he just flat out neglected virtually all mod duties.)

And part of my annoyance is the suspicion that jingoism and knee-jerk nationalism played a role in that infraction...

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

Sam isn't exactly a great person to use as an example of a mod, although I can't speak for Lunar, as I don't remember his comments on the moderating system.

But no, Jingoism/nationalism played no role in that infraction.  My views on foreign policy are quite far from anything close to jingoism.

[Joe Republic]

Edit: Actually I think I remembered the details now, from what I heard Dave who I appealed to himself in a PM disagreed with the infraction and wished to cut it, but for whatever reason refused to do so himself and tried to talk Joe into doing so, to which Joe stubbornly refused.

Uh, no, that never happened.  And believe me, any time Dave inputs himself into moderation decisions would be a pretty memorable event...

[So the Heroes Fall]

Well I think it was Lunar who told me that so it's not very verifiable, but the details are all quite hazy to me now anyway.

Sam isn't exactly a great person to use as an example of a mod, although I can't speak for Lunar, as I don't remember his comments on the moderating system.

But no, Jingoism/nationalism played no role in that infraction.  My views on foreign policy are quite far from anything close to jingoism.

For the record I believe even Joe has called the system stupid before, even though that doesn't prevent him from abusing it as mentioned above. And Inks I have a feeling you would be offended if you were at that show I was at where at the end the last band burnt a bunch of miniature American flags (not for a political statement but rather "ha ha it's the 4th of July and we're burning the American flag!" thing. Stupid yes, but what do you expect a bunch of drunk people at a show to do?)

But the results of this poll should be the primary indicator to the quality of the system. jmfcst also summarized all the flaws very well, though his post doing so was largely ignored.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Not as quickly as we did.  And I've acknowledged that... MULTIPLE times.  But ultimately, his attitude wasn't one of being helpful.  It was one of "HEY I FOUND DEREK! DEREK ALERT! DEREK ALERT! YOU SHOULD BAN HIM BECAUSE I THINK THIS GUY IS DEREK!" without giving evidence.  I'm glad he brought it to our attention, but ultimately, his reasons for doing didn't seem to be for the good of the forum, but to bring attention to himself.  When I asked him for specific evidence (something I think is necessary before we start banning people), he was uncooperative.

look, I don't know how this discussion veered off into the merits of Derek identification, but the anyone who had argued with Derek in-dept could tell it was him...And I wasn't going to parse his idiotic thought process just to attempt to prove to one or more Mods, I didn’t care enough about his presence to teach a class on the Derek Thought Process and I reject your premise that I am somehow responsible for proving to you the obvious. 

If you have to rely on an IP check to confirm the obvious, then you can expect Derek to return in spades as soon as he figures out what proxy servers are.

I was convinced because I had wasted enough brains cells on him two years ago, you weren’t convinced for your own reasons.  End of discussion.

---

I'm glad he brought it to our attention, but ultimately, his reasons for doing didn't seem to be for the good of the forum, but to bring attention to himself.

See, this is a perfect example of how isolated the Mod team has become – you’re threatened by mere theatrics.  But you don’t realize that everyone is complaining that the current system has removed theatrics from the forum and therefore has decreased forum fun.  And since you have removed the fun, one of the only fun things left is to rage against the system.

We want the freedom to be theatrical on the FC and OT boards.  We’re not anti-Mod, rather we’re pro-Fun.

We understand Dave has to protect the site from being filtered, but that doesn’t mean we have to eliminate food fights.  We want flame wars, we want taunting, we want to have fun!