Is the infraction system resulting in over-moderation?

[Proud Lieberal from Northeast]

Inks, you know jmfcst, because of lacking tools you, moderators, for example, have, could not provide any evidences beside outlining stricking similarities between Derek and his sock account.

[The Mikado]

Not as quickly as we did.  And I've acknowledged that... MULTIPLE times.  But ultimately, his attitude wasn't one of being helpful.  It was one of "HEY I FOUND DEREK! DEREK ALERT! DEREK ALERT! YOU SHOULD BAN HIM BECAUSE I THINK THIS GUY IS DEREK!" without giving evidence.  I'm glad he brought it to our attention, but ultimately, his reasons for doing didn't seem to be for the good of the forum, but to bring attention to himself.  When I asked him for specific evidence (something I think is necessary before we start banning people), he was uncooperative.

look, I don't know how this discussion veered off into the merits of Derek identification, but the anyone who had argued with Derek in-dept could tell it was him...And I wasn't going to parse his idiotic thought process just to attempt to prove to one or more Mods, I didn’t care enough about his presence to teach a class on the Derek Thought Process and I reject your premise that I am somehow responsible for proving to you the obvious. 

If you have to rely on an IP check to confirm the obvious, then you can expect Derek to return in spades as soon as he figures out what proxy servers are.

I was convinced because I had wasted enough brains cells on him two years ago, you weren’t convinced for your own reasons.  End of discussion.

---

I'm glad he brought it to our attention, but ultimately, his reasons for doing didn't seem to be for the good of the forum, but to bring attention to himself.

See, this is a perfect example of how isolated the Mod team has become – you’re threatened by mere theatrics.  But you don’t realize that everyone is complaining that the current system has removed theatrics from the forum and therefore has decreased forum fun.  And since you have removed the fun, one of the only fun things left is to rage against the system.

We want the freedom to be theatrical on the FC and OT boards.  We’re not anti-Mod, rather we’re pro-Fun.

We understand Dave has to protect the site from being filtered, but that doesn’t mean we have to eliminate food fights.  We want flame wars, we want taunting, we want to have fun! 

First: one of the complicating factors was that Derek's physical location had changed from when he was on here two years ago, so of course it didn't match his old IP.  It took us a while (and Nym's power of being able to see the IPs banned posters tried to log in on) to match Derek's new location with Derek.

Second: Outside of Ernest, Gustaf, and myself, very few of the mods had serious interface with Derek when he was here two years ago.  Speaking for myself, I was totally convinced the second he took my comment about ancient aliens building the pyramids and agreed with it.  Only Derek is both dumb enough to believe that and to not recognize an obvious trap.  That said, it took the IP similarity to have decisive evidence that was ban-worthy.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

First: one of the complicating factors was that Derek's physical location had changed from when he was on here two years ago, so of course it didn't match his old IP.  It took us a while (and Nym's power of being able to see the IPs banned posters tried to log in on) to match Derek's new location with Derek.

Second: Outside of Ernest, Gustaf, and myself, very few of the mods had serious interface with Derek when he was here two years ago.  Speaking for myself, I was totally convinced the second he took my comment about ancient aliens building the pyramids and agreed with it.  Only Derek is both dumb enough to believe that and to not recognize an obvious trap.  That said, it took the IP similarity to have decisive evidence that was ban-worthy.

ok, but if the Mods version of "beyond reasonable doubt" requires an IP trace to identify a Derek, then that is going to be very easy to get around.  The Mods who don't have experience with the banned poster in question simply need to defer to the Mods who do have knowledge of the poster (in this case – Ernest, Gustaf and yourself).

But, I don't want to talk about Derek, I want to talk about restoring flame wars and other fun stuff to the FC and OT boards.  In order to do this, the majority of Mods and the majority of posters need to first reach agreement on how to best define trolling, which is subjective to begin with.  After such agreement, If the Mods feel the outcome of those discussions needs to be taken to Dave, then we’ll do so as a group (both posters and Mods), but telling us to individually email Dave is a non-starter.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

Inks, you know jmfcst, because of lacking tools you, moderators, for example, have, could not provide any evidences beside outlining stricking similarities between Derek and his sock account.

KAL!  YOU'RE NOT LISTENING!  I didn't ask for evidence from jmfcst that was 100% reliable.  I asked him to lay out all of the evidence he had (may comparing a dozen posts or so), instead of just saying there were similarities

I was asking him to OUTLINE those similarities, not just say they existed.

What don't you get about that?

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

First: one of the complicating factors was that Derek's physical location had changed from when he was on here two years ago, so of course it didn't match his old IP.  It took us a while (and Nym's power of being able to see the IPs banned posters tried to log in on) to match Derek's new location with Derek.

Second: Outside of Ernest, Gustaf, and myself, very few of the mods had serious interface with Derek when he was here two years ago.  Speaking for myself, I was totally convinced the second he took my comment about ancient aliens building the pyramids and agreed with it.  Only Derek is both dumb enough to believe that and to not recognize an obvious trap.  That said, it took the IP similarity to have decisive evidence that was ban-worthy.

ok, but if the Mods version of "beyond reasonable doubt" requires an IP trace to identify a Derek, then that is going to be very easy to get around.  The Mods who don't have experience with the banned poster in question simply need to defer to the Mods who do have knowledge of the poster (in this case – Ernest, Gustaf and yourself).

It doesn't require an IP trace.  It did require more than just a statement saying people saw similarities.  I wanted to see specific examples of what those similarities (with quoted posts) before I decided if we should ban someone.

[opebo]

Look at this thread, just look at it.  I feel physically ill.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It doesn't require an IP trace.  It did require more than just a statement saying people saw similarities.  I wanted to see specific examples of what those similarities (with quoted posts) before I decided if we should ban someone.

as I have told you before, I wasn't willing to descend into the idocy of Derek in order to retrieve this evidence for you.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

Then don't complain at my reluctance to ban at first.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Then don't complain at my reluctance to ban at first.

But, I really don’t care about Derek or your reluctance to ban him…but I do care about theatrics, and the results of this poll show an overwhelming percentage of posters feel the current system is draining the theatrical life out of this forum.

Certainly there is a way to protect the forum from filters and maintain the exchange of political thought, while still having an area set aside for horsing around.

Yo, Inks infracted you for trolling and he said, "No way!"
That hypocrite tolerates two socks a day
Man, posting under mod review is such a drag
Now your thread was deleted for calling Inks a……nag (Busted!)

You gotta fight…for your right…to be a smarty!

[Mr. Morden]

I think the question of whether we have infraction points and what gets moderated are more separate issues than some of you may think.  Just browsing through the mod reports, one does not get the impression that nearly as many people are engaging in the sort of hunt-and-report behavior as BRTD seems to be suggesting.  You could do away with infraction points, and still have a similar number of posts being deleted or edited as is happening now.  Or you could keep infraction points, and relax moderation standards.  Even if the two rose up over similar time periods, it doesn't mean that removing one removes the other.

[Joe Republic]

We understand Dave has to protect the site from being filtered, but that doesn’t mean we have to eliminate food fights.  We want flame wars, we want taunting, we want to have fun! 

I don't know of any message boards that allow that for very long.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

We understand Dave has to protect the site from being filtered, but that doesn’t mean we have to eliminate food fights.  We want flame wars, we want taunting, we want to have fun!  

I don't know of any message boards that allow that for very long.

it used to be allowed on THIS forum all the time.  And the masses loved it.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Not that I'm going to argue the forum should be made into a place for flame wars, but I think it's worth asking if things like opeboisms posting about "dumbs" and "poors" or if Freedom Fighter vs. Horrible Person would be infracted as "Trolling" if they arose on the forum today.

[bgwah]

Think of infraction points as an allowance. You get a $50 allowance every three months. Don't spend it all at once, though. You should wait a few weeks between calling Joe a biatch and Inks a 'ho.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

We understand Dave has to protect the site from being filtered, but that doesn’t mean we have to eliminate food fights.  We want flame wars, we want taunting, we want to have fun!  

I don't know of any message boards that allow that for very long.

it used to be allowed on THIS forum all the time.  And the masses loved it.

Ahh, well, if the masses like it, it must be good!

[ModerateCoward]

Think of infraction points as an allowance. You get a $50 allowance every three months. Don't spend it all at once, though. You should wait a few weeks between calling Joe a biatch and Inks a 'ho.

Thread winner.