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Author Topic: Coup d'etat in Mali  (Read 8933 times)
Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2012, 05:51:47 pm »
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Through December and early January, the tone of the exchanges on various Tuareg chat forums was expectant, frustrated, even desultory at times.

LOL. How many Tuaregs have internet access, really (and of those that do, what is their geographical distribution like)? Serious question btw.

How representative would they be of Tuaregs in general is what I would like to know. Then again, I think more people are on the internet than one would expect.

No doubt. As for that first question, I think that was sort of covered by the geographical distribution bit.
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Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 05:52:49 pm »
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Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

After the Mormon brothers win their elections, they will move the national capitals to Timbuktu and Kalamazoo, and sign the Dr. Seuss Mormon brotherhood agreement.
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 12:29:47 am »
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Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

After the Mormon brothers win their elections, they will move the national capitals to Timbuktu and Kalamazoo, and sign the Dr. Seuss Mormon brotherhood agreement.

WHOOOOOOOOOOO!  WHOOOOOOOOOOO!
wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!  wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!

That is one of my favorite children's book from my childhood you are referencing there and The Train to Timbuctoo had absolutely nothing to do with Dr. Seuss as inimitable Margaret Wise Brown wrote it.

CLACKETY-CLACK!  CLACKETY-CLACK!
clickety-click! clickety-click!

Not even the same publisher, as Dr. Seuss was published by Random House and this classic gem was a Little Golden Book.

POCKETA-POCKETA-POCKETA-POCKETA
picketa-picketa-pcketa-picketa

Anyway, now that I've cleared that up, Goodnight jfern!

WHOOOOOOOO! WHOOOOOOOOO!
wheeeeeeeeee! wheeeeeeeeeee!
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 04:30:48 pm »
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I think this map of population density explain why the north is less developed.



That and the fact that its a landlocked desert.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 05:51:24 pm »
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Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.

Worth noting that the country at stake in both cases straddled the Sub-Saharan "Black Africa"/North Africa-Sahara-divide.
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As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2012, 08:53:40 pm »
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Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.

Worth noting that the country at stake in both cases straddled the Sub-Saharan "Black Africa"/North Africa-Sahara-divide.

Also worth noting that Mali was formerly known as French Soudan.
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Quote from: Ignatius of Antioch
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2012, 04:31:24 am »
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Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2012, 06:44:16 am »
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Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
I disagree. The divide in those countries is religious. Black Africans with fairly similar peasant cultures on each side. The divide between (generally) more light skinned nomadic/semi-normadic pastoralists and sedentary Blacks in the Sahel is more important. Race matters in Africa and the agriculturaist/pastoralist divide is always a source of confict.

That said Nigeria is obviousy a monstrosity. Should be divided into 3 countries - Hausa/Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo dominated respectively.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 07:58:23 am by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2012, 08:09:57 am »
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Obviously the other divide exists as well, and obviously the forest belt has much diminished and had roads and settlement corridors carved through at European orders a century ago, but disagreeing with me is, in this case, simply identical to admitting you don't know the first thing about the history of the area. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 09:05:53 am by Catmuslim »Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2012, 08:27:46 am »
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Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
I disagree. The divide in those countries is religious. Black Africans with fairly similar peasant cultures on each side. The divide between (generally) more light skinned nomadic/semi-normadic pastoralists and sedentary Blacks in the Sahel is more important. Race matters in Africa and the agriculturaist/pastoralist divide is always a source of confict.

That said Nigeria is obviousy a monstrosity. Should be divided into 3 countries - Hausa/Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo dominated respectively.

Cote-d'Ivoire's divide, at least is more than religious. The north/savanna is mainly reliant on herding, cotton and low-income crops; while the south/forest is driven by coffee and cacoa. And it isn't like there isn't any population mobility: something like 30% of Ivorians, especially in the north, immigrated from Burkina Faso. Imo, just because the divide might in good part be religious doesn't make a country any less monstrously divided or important.
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2012, 09:01:34 am »
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Obviously the other divide exists as well, and obviously the forest belt has much diminished and had roads and settlement corridors carved through at European orders a century ago, but disagreeing with me is, in this case, simply identical to admitting you don't know the first thing about the history of the area.

The fault line running through Sudan andTchad around the twelfth parallel continuing across Niger/Mali and dividing Moslem, "Arab" north and non-Moslem African south is the major dividing line in Africa and has caused numerous conflicts. The states divided by this are clearly the most "monstrous" on the Continent.
Of course there is a north/south divide in Ivory Coast and Ghana, but the differences are definitely smaller.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 11:28:28 am by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2012, 09:06:39 am »
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The Touareg aren't Arabic in the slightest...
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« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2012, 11:31:38 am »
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Tuaregs are linguistically very near to the Berbers in Morocco and Algeria. In West Africa the different groups are very mixed with each other, but is clear that the whole are between Senegal and Northern Nigeria is a complex chunk languages. In contrast the easiest new nations should be achieved in countries like Zimbabwe, Angola and Zambia.
Yes but with Zimbabwe (Shona/Ndebele) as a possible exception, the need to divide those countries is smaller than Nigeria or Tchad.
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Charlotte Hebdo
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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2012, 03:17:49 pm »
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The Tuareg aren't Arabic in the slightest...
No one said they where. I wrote "Arabic" (not Arabic), because I was talking about Moslem North Africans in general - including Berbers, Tuareg's etc. Arabic speakers are just the majority of North Africans, so its a convenient label. Like calling the British for English etc.
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 03:37:06 pm »
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They are a people of the south side of the desert. Yes, they moved south at some point - a millennium ago. Are the Toubou "Arabic"?
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« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2012, 10:56:21 am »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg?

I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture.

Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
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« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2012, 12:58:15 pm »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.
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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2012, 01:15:38 pm »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.

Link? The MNLA has been mostly secular throughout this entire rebellion, so I'd have to see some evidence before I believe that. And if it's from a Malian state news source, I wouldn't trust it.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2012, 01:48:14 pm »
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At least some Touareg leaders seem to be genuinely unhappy about the sudden presence of 'out-of-region' islamists on their general side of this conflict, to say the least.
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Charlotte Hebdo
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« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2012, 03:31:00 pm »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.

Link? The MNLA has been mostly secular throughout this entire rebellion, so I'd have to see some evidence before I believe that. And if it's from a Malian state news source, I wouldn't trust it.
Denmarks Radio (DR) our public service TV channel. Normally reliable.
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2012, 05:10:38 pm »
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At least some Touareg leaders seem to be genuinely unhappy about the sudden presence of 'out-of-region' islamists on their general side of this conflict, to say the least.

From what I can tell, the leader of the Tuareg Islamists got kicked out of the main group for being too fanatical. And the Ansar Dine fringe rebels seem to be weak compared to the larger MNLA. It's only the incompetence of the coup leaders that's letting them invade Southern Mali.
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2012, 05:17:11 pm »
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Yeah, Ansar Din (Timbuktu) and MNLA are different groups.
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2012, 05:29:03 pm »
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Denmarks Radio (DR) our public service TV channel. Normally reliable.

I doubt DR has its own reporter in Mali, and maybe not even in the whole of West Africa.  If they are getting their reportage from RFI or AFP, I would not be at all surprised to see it tilt towards the official Malian line,  While the MNLA and Ansar Dine did work together to drive out the Malian Army from the north, they have separate goals.  While the BBC has reported that Ansar Dine has indicated that they will impose sharia law on the areas they control, it has not reported that the MNLA has agreed with that and indeed it looks like they may start fighting with each other.

I suspect that one reason the MNLA has declared they won't be heading further south is that they hope Ansar Dine will head south and confront the Malian army and thus grind both of their foes down,  For much the same reason, I don't expect that even if they could launch an offensive to the north that the Malian Army will head north right now as they would want the MNLA and AD to start fighting each other.
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Quote from: Ignatius of Antioch
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2012, 05:43:47 pm »
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Tuaregs are linguistically very near to the Berbers in Morocco and Algeria. In West Africa the different groups are very mixed with each other, but is clear that the whole are between Senegal and Northern Nigeria is a complex chunk languages. In contrast the easiest new nations should be achieved in countries like Zimbabwe, Angola and Zambia.

At this point, I think that mass secessions anywhere in Africa would cause far more problems than it solves....though I do think the secession of South Sudan was to the greater good (except possibly for oppressive North Sudanese Islamists and 'Arab' supremacists, whose 'good' I just don't care about).
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2012, 10:28:55 pm »
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Found an article in French (remember, French is one of the major languages in West Africa) that should clear things up: http://afrique.blog.lemonde.fr/2012/04/05/les-rebelles-touareg-en-guerre-contre-al-qaida-au-maghreb-islamique/

Here's the GoogleTranslated translation:

Quote

Tuareg rebels in the war against al Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb?

The situation is still evolving as fast in northern Mali, but this time there is no question of lightning advances toward Bamako. He would rather the turn of the war, with Tuareg rebels who would fight AQIM (Al Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb). Just when the Tuareg movement announced (Wednesday night) the "end of military operations"? In reality, this unilateral decision by the MNLA concerns only the advance southward, and then suspends the attacks towards loyalist areas. The lock, from this point of view, would have been Mopti. Precisely, the MNLA has not taken Mopti (except shift), and their troops, having driven or seen fleeing the loyalist troops across Northern Mali (Azawad), are now turning to domestic problems. This is where the problem arises with AQIM, and the forces of another rebel leader, Iyad ag Ghali, who seems opposed to the MNLA and closer to AQIM.

The problem is particularly acute in Timbuktu, where all these forces are nested inside each other for two days, but also in the rest of Azawad, this Northern Mali that could eventually become a territory in search of its autonomy. Gao, for example, elements of AQIM close (probably MUJOA group), participated according to the MNLA hostage during the consulate of Algeria. Two people with explosive belts would be right now with the hostages, and a source within the MNLA says his group "is reluctant to storm!" We see how the situation produces surprising effects.

But back to Timbuktu. The MNLA, controlled locally by its chief of staff, Mohamed Ag Najim was the first to come into town for the weekend, almost without a struggle, is materialized before another group, Ansar Dine, ordered by Iyag ag Ghali, and some AQIM katibas. Evidenced by various sources, including those contacted by telephone in the city.

Between the MNLA and AQIM, divorce is vital

In fact impossible to go to Timbuktu, and it must be based on several sources, but without personal verification and direct, to understand what is taking place.

But what is happening could be of paramount importance. In essence, the MNLA plans to address this to AQIM, why not with the help of Western countries and the region (West Africa). This is ag Sid'Ahmed Hama, External Relations and spokesperson for the Executive Office of the MNLA, which explains at midday Thursday.

Between the MNLA and AQIM, divorce is vital for Tuareg rebels who fear "amalgam" and have in mind the fate of their Azawad. To support his point of view, Hama dates back to ag Sid'Ahmed taking Timbuktu: The MNLA had negotiated entry into the city with some militias "Arab", but these militias are of several types. The first group, the most numerous, let him in without a fight in the MNLA Timbuktu, which had been abandoned by the regular troops (rather from the south of the country). The others are either relatives of Ansar Dine or members of pro-AQIM networks they are usually used for refueling. (More katibas because, over the years, had a habit of coming to shop in the cities, never raise ration of the Malian authorities).

Peaceful coexistence could be shattered soon

According to Hama ag Sid'Ahmed AQIM, it is the latter group would have raced to the abandoned camp to be used in military equipment. "The small group of Arabs who are the network of AQIM in Timbuktu long took up arms and ammunition in the camp. Everyone was doing and was using. It was one of the objectives of AQIM in Timbuktu. "
Since then, a sort of calm has been established in Timbuktu. forces MNLA, up to Thursday afternoon, were concentrated at the airport, but also went to the center, or hospital, run by a mixture of AQIM forces, local militias and fighters of Ansar Dine. A form of peaceful coexistence, probably short life expectancy.
Who should be shattered soon as the MNLA, according to his spokesman of the executive, would give an ultimatum until Friday to AQIM and Iyad ag Ghali troops to leave Timbuktu, otherwise the fighting begin . The same source, men can be classified as members of AQIM would be 146 on the extent of the city. The MNLA even claims to block the road AQIM South!

The MNLA goes even further: in a second step, this would all positions of AQIM in Mali that could be attacked, mainly in the north east, towards the Adora N'Fughas, area where normally Abu Zeid, one of the hardest emirs of AQIM, which still holds four French hostages.

In considering this war against AQIM, the MNLA offers to cooperate with countries in the region, which are now gathered in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, to advance on the definition of an African force could be deployed between North and South Mali. For such a hypothesis took shape, and a force still hypothetical eventually there should be a serious international support, probably a UN resolution, and an almost complete logistical support for this force. The MNLA proposes to Western countries "like France for example" (but also the U.S.) to participate in this operation Anti-AQIM. Waiting to see if this hypothesis is taking shape.

Meanwhile, pressure continues on the captain Sanogo, the junta leader in Bamako, to convince him to leave office. If he took this decision, perhaps soon, the path would be easier for an anti-AQIM. And the overthrow of Amadou Toumani Toure would have led to this ....

Since I don't speak French, this is the best I can give you.
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