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Author Topic: Coup d'etat in Mali  (Read 6828 times)
Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2012, 05:51:47 pm »
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Through December and early January, the tone of the exchanges on various Tuareg chat forums was expectant, frustrated, even desultory at times.

LOL. How many Tuaregs have internet access, really (and of those that do, what is their geographical distribution like)? Serious question btw.

How representative would they be of Tuaregs in general is what I would like to know. Then again, I think more people are on the internet than one would expect.

No doubt. As for that first question, I think that was sort of covered by the geographical distribution bit.
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Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 05:52:49 pm »
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Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

After the Mormon brothers win their elections, they will move the national capitals to Timbuktu and Kalamazoo, and sign the Dr. Seuss Mormon brotherhood agreement.
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 12:29:47 am »
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Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

After the Mormon brothers win their elections, they will move the national capitals to Timbuktu and Kalamazoo, and sign the Dr. Seuss Mormon brotherhood agreement.

WHOOOOOOOOOOO!  WHOOOOOOOOOOO!
wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!  wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!

That is one of my favorite children's book from my childhood you are referencing there and The Train to Timbuctoo had absolutely nothing to do with Dr. Seuss as inimitable Margaret Wise Brown wrote it.

CLACKETY-CLACK!  CLACKETY-CLACK!
clickety-click! clickety-click!

Not even the same publisher, as Dr. Seuss was published by Random House and this classic gem was a Little Golden Book.

POCKETA-POCKETA-POCKETA-POCKETA
picketa-picketa-pcketa-picketa

Anyway, now that I've cleared that up, Goodnight jfern!

WHOOOOOOOO! WHOOOOOOOOO!
wheeeeeeeeee! wheeeeeeeeeee!
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 10:42:57 am »
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Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.

The Tuareg situation is the most complicated one (like Kurds in Middle East). Otherwise,  this is a firm step towards the 300 member UN. It is interesting that wikipedias list on recessionist movements in Africa only recognized independentists Tuaregs in Niger.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 10:56:30 am by Ethelberth »Logged
lowtech redneck
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 04:30:48 pm »
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I think this map of population density explain why the north is less developed.



That and the fact that its a landlocked desert.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2012, 05:51:24 pm »
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Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.

Worth noting that the country at stake in both cases straddled the Sub-Saharan "Black Africa"/North Africa-Sahara-divide.
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Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2012, 08:53:40 pm »
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Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.

Worth noting that the country at stake in both cases straddled the Sub-Saharan "Black Africa"/North Africa-Sahara-divide.

Also worth noting that Mali was formerly known as French Soudan.
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My ballot:
Ervin(I) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2012, 04:31:24 am »
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Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2012, 06:44:16 am »
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Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
I disagree. The divide in those countries is religious. Black Africans with fairly similar peasant cultures on each side. The divide between (generally) more light skinned nomadic/semi-normadic pastoralists and sedentary Blacks in the Sahel is more important. Race matters in Africa and the agriculturaist/pastoralist divide is always a source of confict.

That said Nigeria is obviousy a monstrosity. Should be divided into 3 countries - Hausa/Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo dominated respectively.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 07:58:23 am by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2012, 08:09:57 am »
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Obviously the other divide exists as well, and obviously the forest belt has much diminished and had roads and settlement corridors carved through at European orders a century ago, but disagreeing with me is, in this case, simply identical to admitting you don't know the first thing about the history of the area. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 09:05:53 am by Catmuslim »Logged

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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2012, 08:27:46 am »
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Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
I disagree. The divide in those countries is religious. Black Africans with fairly similar peasant cultures on each side. The divide between (generally) more light skinned nomadic/semi-normadic pastoralists and sedentary Blacks in the Sahel is more important. Race matters in Africa and the agriculturaist/pastoralist divide is always a source of confict.

That said Nigeria is obviousy a monstrosity. Should be divided into 3 countries - Hausa/Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo dominated respectively.

Cote-d'Ivoire's divide, at least is more than religious. The north/savanna is mainly reliant on herding, cotton and low-income crops; while the south/forest is driven by coffee and cacoa. And it isn't like there isn't any population mobility: something like 30% of Ivorians, especially in the north, immigrated from Burkina Faso. Imo, just because the divide might in good part be religious doesn't make a country any less monstrously divided or important.
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2012, 09:01:34 am »
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Obviously the other divide exists as well, and obviously the forest belt has much diminished and had roads and settlement corridors carved through at European orders a century ago, but disagreeing with me is, in this case, simply identical to admitting you don't know the first thing about the history of the area.

The fault line running through Sudan andTchad around the twelfth parallel continuing across Niger/Mali and dividing Moslem, "Arab" north and non-Moslem African south is the major dividing line in Africa and has caused numerous conflicts. The states divided by this are clearly the most "monstrous" on the Continent.
Of course there is a north/south divide in Ivory Coast and Ghana, but the differences are definitely smaller.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 11:28:28 am by politicus »Logged

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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2012, 09:06:39 am »
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The Touareg aren't Arabic in the slightest...
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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2012, 09:31:31 am »
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Tuaregs are linguistically very near to the Berbers in Morocco and Algeria. In West Africa the different groups are very mixed with each other, but is clear that the whole are between Senegal and Northern Nigeria is a complex chunk languages. In contrast the easiest new nations should be achieved in countries like Zimbabwe, Angola and Zambia.
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 11:31:38 am »
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Tuaregs are linguistically very near to the Berbers in Morocco and Algeria. In West Africa the different groups are very mixed with each other, but is clear that the whole are between Senegal and Northern Nigeria is a complex chunk languages. In contrast the easiest new nations should be achieved in countries like Zimbabwe, Angola and Zambia.
Yes but with Zimbabwe (Shona/Ndebele) as a possible exception, the need to divide those countries is smaller than Nigeria or Tchad.
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politicus
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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2012, 03:17:49 pm »
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The Tuareg aren't Arabic in the slightest...
No one said they where. I wrote "Arabic" (not Arabic), because I was talking about Moslem North Africans in general - including Berbers, Tuareg's etc. Arabic speakers are just the majority of North Africans, so its a convenient label. Like calling the British for English etc.
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« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 03:37:06 pm »
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They are a people of the south side of the desert. Yes, they moved south at some point - a millennium ago. Are the Toubou "Arabic"?
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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2012, 10:56:21 am »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg?

I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture.

Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
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politicus
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« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2012, 12:58:15 pm »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.
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« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2012, 01:15:38 pm »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.

Link? The MNLA has been mostly secular throughout this entire rebellion, so I'd have to see some evidence before I believe that. And if it's from a Malian state news source, I wouldn't trust it.
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2012, 01:48:14 pm »
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At least some Touareg leaders seem to be genuinely unhappy about the sudden presence of 'out-of-region' islamists on their general side of this conflict, to say the least.
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2012, 03:31:00 pm »
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What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.

Link? The MNLA has been mostly secular throughout this entire rebellion, so I'd have to see some evidence before I believe that. And if it's from a Malian state news source, I wouldn't trust it.
Denmarks Radio (DR) our public service TV channel. Normally reliable.
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2012, 05:10:38 pm »
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At least some Touareg leaders seem to be genuinely unhappy about the sudden presence of 'out-of-region' islamists on their general side of this conflict, to say the least.

From what I can tell, the leader of the Tuareg Islamists got kicked out of the main group for being too fanatical. And the Ansar Dine fringe rebels seem to be weak compared to the larger MNLA. It's only the incompetence of the coup leaders that's letting them invade Southern Mali.
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2012, 05:17:11 pm »
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Yeah, Ansar Din (Timbuktu) and MNLA are different groups.
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2012, 05:29:03 pm »
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Denmarks Radio (DR) our public service TV channel. Normally reliable.

I doubt DR has its own reporter in Mali, and maybe not even in the whole of West Africa.  If they are getting their reportage from RFI or AFP, I would not be at all surprised to see it tilt towards the official Malian line,  While the MNLA and Ansar Dine did work together to drive out the Malian Army from the north, they have separate goals.  While the BBC has reported that Ansar Dine has indicated that they will impose sharia law on the areas they control, it has not reported that the MNLA has agreed with that and indeed it looks like they may start fighting with each other.

I suspect that one reason the MNLA has declared they won't be heading further south is that they hope Ansar Dine will head south and confront the Malian army and thus grind both of their foes down,  For much the same reason, I don't expect that even if they could launch an offensive to the north that the Malian Army will head north right now as they would want the MNLA and AD to start fighting each other.
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My ballot:
Ervin(I) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
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