Pro-Jesus Jews paid Rick Santorum

[ag]

These were your words in this thread:

"The "controversy" is that they have committed "high treason" and try to induce others do the same."

That is very strange rhetoric to describe behavior that you consider perfectly within ones rights.

And I stand by these words. They committed "high treason" from the standpoint of a community, to which I myself am almost equally traitorous. And, as you know, I, generally, consider "high treason" to be a rather laudalbe act )

But in this thread we are not discussing MY reaction: I am not even a US citizen, so I am perfectly irrelevant here. We are trying to figure out how a certain voting block would behave. That voting block, most definitely, would not be as amused as I am at present )

So, when you said, "The "controversy" is that they have committed "high treason" and try to induce others do the same," what you really meant is that didn't really commit "high treason" by your personal standard?

By my personal standard that's a non-existent crime )

But we are not discussing myself here. We are discussing those Jews, who might potentially vote Republican. For most of them (w/ exception of some Russians) it's a huge turn-off.

[Torie]

Most Jews are offended when outfits using "Jew" in their name whom they consider flying under false colors using unethical tactics to try to peel off members of their tribe and dilute their religion. Others think Jews shouldn't be offended and should just get over themselves - it's all part of the marketing game in the religion business, so chill out guys. Arguing that someone shouldn't be offended when they are, is one of the most ultimate exercises in futility, and just feeds the flames of resentment actually. It would be like me saying the "Santorum wing" of the GOP should not be foisting their agenda on the GOP because much of it actually just isn't suitable to being resolved in the public square, and is wrong headed and political poison to boot, and they should just stop. Is that going to persuade anyone of anything?  No. It will just irritate folks.

It is just the way the world is - almost as immutable as the earth is round rather than flat. Ersatz Jews are going to be offending Jews for a long time to come, and they will certainly not appreciate being lectured to that they shouldn't be. That simply isn't the way to win friends and influence people.

[pbrower2a]

I agree that Jews For Jesus are not actual Jews and a somewhat shady group, though ultimately harmless. My real issue is that the type of people that is being speculated this would hurt Santorum of wouldn't respond much better to simple "normal" conversions to Christianity. Someone born in Borough Park who ignored the "Messianic Judaism" nonsense and just became a Presbyterian or Catholic or evangelical or whatever likely would still be ostracized by that community. The idea of "hereditary religion" REALLY offends me, this is kind of a personal issue that hits close to home so I shouldn't go into the details, let me just say it's largely affected by the (admittedly more mild but still there) attitudes in some Catholic communities (not all or even most Catholics fall into this I'll admit, including the ones from my family, but hearing about the attitudes some take like that woman in the hospital who dealt with Nathan's Buddhist relative often quite hits a nerve.) But this isn't the place for that.

And as not even being a Republican it's really none of my business and how it'd affect my vote doesn't matter, sure. And yeah they have the right to think that way, just as people have the right to vote against anyone for being Jewish or vote against Obama for being black. My point is more that people who adhere to this type of thinking are more morally repugnant than Santorum, and that's saying A LOT.

BRTD, your own experience, such as it is, is kind of a ridiculous comparison.  Throughout its history, Judaism and the Jewish people have been pushed to extinction.

1) It is highly ironic that many of those whom bitch and moan about the "extinction" of "Judaism" are themselves folks whom have personally abandoned Judaism for atheism. Seems there are doing their part for the extinction of the religion.

2) I thought the goal atheism included the "extinction" of Judaism. As one of the religions with a minimal number of adherents, presumably, it would be one of the first to die. Is the drive for atheism suppose to exclude Judaism?

3) Rhetoric that equates "assimilation" with "extinction" is hyperbolic and wrong. Genetically, twenty million people 1/4 Askenazi, or 5 million pure-blood Askenazis constitute the exact same share of the gene pool.

1. Such people are sentimental about "Jewish culture" but ignore the religious reality that underpins all "Jewish cultures".

2. Does Judaism have anything to offer the rest of humanity? It's about the most benign of current religious traditions. I suspect that the theology is simpler and thus allows more emphasis on ethics than upon divisive debates.    

3. Consider that the non-Jewish spouse in an interfaith marriage has some chance of converting to Judaism. This is especially likely if both spouses begin with favorable views of Judaism.  Judaism is not as based on ethnicity as it was when Jews were endogamous groups in ghettos and shtetls.

1) So I take it that you are an honest to goodness Jewish theist?

2) Do Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and the other smaller religions "offer" anything to mankind? That is an interesting question. Perhaps they do. But, I have yet to meet an atheist whom thinks it important that folks other than himself practise any of these religions. Certainly, few here seem to think Rick Santorum's Catholism means he has some special wisdom to offer mankind.

Those that believe that "religion is the opiate of the masses" would, presumably, answer that Judaism is the opiate of the Jewish masses.

3) Claiming Jewishness is not tied to race is an opinion that would put you well outside the mainstream of "Jewish" thinking.

1. I'm not Jewish. I have had some nasty encounters with bigots who thought that I was. A German-American is almost certain to experience that unless he affiliates with the most demonic cause to have ever existed. Nothing makes Judaism and Jewish cultures look better to me than does anti-Jewish bigotry. I consider Jewish influence upon American political, economic, scientific, and cultural life an enrichment.

Christianity needs Judaism to keep it alert to an ethical debate more than two millennial old worthy of participation. Without attention to the Jewish part of the Christian heritage, Christian theological debates tend to devolve to "How many angels can dance upon the head of a pin?"

But what the heck? I never could quite understand what the Holy Ghost is, anyway.  

2. See above. In view of Jewish cultural achievements and in Jewish participation in labor, feminist, and minority-rights movements (Jewish participation in the civil-rights struggle of the 1960s was out of proportion to their numbers to a greater extent than any identifiable group except for African-Americans) Judaism is a positive force for humanity.

3. Although conversion to Judaism is difficult, a convert to Judaism needs have no tie to any Jewish ethnic group before then. After conversion, Judaism without ties to a Jewish community is about as absurd as being a penguin in the middle of the Sahara.   Judaism does not proselytize; Jewish thought seems to hold that a gentile with a strong moral compass is far preferable to a flawed Jew. As I understand it the Jewish view of the Afterlife is that the moral gentile will enjoy the great bliss of a Jewish Heaven -- after a quicker, easier, and inevitable conversion to Judaism.

If there were any religion that I wish were right for the good of Humanity it would be Judaism! Imagine that a Hindu policeman is killed in the terrorist attack on Mumbai having given his life in a way that saves Christians and Muslims in the knowledge that he does so. As a non-Muslim would his heroism get him to the Muslim paradise? Not from what I understand.    The Christian paradise? That depends upon the theology of the Christian denomination. The Jewish paradise? Having been a Hindu would be no bar.  

..."Jews for Jesus" gets much criticism from Christian organizations for theological fraudulence. Most Christians who know about the group recognize the group as a sham.  

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't have any problem with Jews who decide to convert to another religion (or simply decide they want to be atheists or agnostics).  I have always hated the idea that if you are born a certain religion, than you have to be that religion.

Ah, well then we agree. That was my main concern here, since I doubt the hasids being discussed here agree with us on this. I do agree Jews for Jesus shouldn't call themselves Jews, but I also think Mormons shouldn't call themselves Christians, so it's pretty obvious that I'm not going to get what I want in regards to this stuff.

[Sbane]

There's a huge difference between attempting to annihilate one culture and someone from that culture simply abandoning it.

And I doubt anyone in the west would defend the parties in India that want to ban religious conversion despite the fact that Hindus had to suffer under colonialism and a lot of harsh evangelism as well.

BRTD, in the tribal areas of India where these missionaries try to convert everyone in their villages, it basically does lead to the annihilation of their culture. We are not talking about "mainstream" Hinduism here. We are not talking about missionaries in big cities. We are talking about tribal cultures which can sometimes be very different from what is considered now to be "Hinduism". And when violence against missionaries occurs, it's by these tribal people trying to protect their indigenous culture, not BJP foot soldiers who are more concerned about the Islamic menace. While I do not condone violence, I hope missionaries leave these people and their culture alone. And no, this has nothing to do with colonialism. Also just to be clear this is regarding the tribals in central India, not the ones in the northeast. They are different, and many have already embraced Christianity. They would be just as at home in Burma as in India. The only reason they are in India is their historical trade with the Assamese river valleys.

Anyways I don't want to take this thread in another direction. I also understand why Jews would be touchy about something like this. They don't have strength in numbers and missionaries targeting them, especially when flying false colors, can lead to the decimation of their religion within America as well.