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Author Topic: Pro-Jesus Jews paid Rick Santorum  (Read 1970 times)
Torie
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« on: March 22, 2012, 05:53:13 pm »
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This little contretemps does not bother me in the slightest (I really don't care what religious sect folks subscribe to, nor how they label themselves, unless we sink down to the Scientologist level or something), but it may hurt Rick with those Orthodox Jews (as well as other Jews for that matter perhaps) who have not yet found their way to Jesus. According to the Orthodox Jewish guy I talked to about redistricting in NYC, Rick has some rather substantial support among registered Pub Orthodox Jews, including from himself - tentatively at least. He thinks Rick will run better than Mittens in Ohio against Obama among other things.  Everyone has their own opinion.

I find it interesting however, because I recently met the daughter of my next door neighbor who is a self described messianic "Jew" who has embraced Christ, who lives in Utica, New York, poor thing. She is a strong Santorum supporter. Her still Jewish parents are going to vote for Obama.  Anyway, this tends to connect the dots a bit. When it comes to religion, Rick has a certain psychological intensity about it, which is unusual for politicians in my experience.

Everyone carves their own path in life don't they?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 05:59:02 pm by Torie »Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 06:45:04 pm »
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That's fine with me if Santorum accepts a paid speaking engagement to a Jewish group who believe Jesus is the Savior.

What I find interesting is that, according to this article, Santorum previously failed to disclose $95,000 in speaking fees he received.

Now this is hardly the way that a good Christian should be acting, especially when he's running around the country constantly telling everyone how they should be behaving.  

The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America paid Santorum $6,000 to speak at its 2010 annual conference, according to a filing released Wednesday showing a total of nearly $95,000 in speaking fees that Santorum previously failed to disclose.
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2012, 07:17:02 pm »
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 08:36:31 pm »
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Hopefully, Rick "disclosed" his speaking fee income on his tax return. I assume that he did. I assume that Rick is not a crook. Absent that, since Rick was not in public office at the time, just why does he have some duty to reveal to the public the exact source of his streams of income, assuming those streams are legal?  Granted, I can understand opposition research digging into it. That is all part of the game.

I wonder what the "filing" was that disclosed it?  That confuses me.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 08:38:17 pm by Torie »Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 08:40:12 pm »
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Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 11:01:32 pm »
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So some Jews who converted to Christianity support Rick Santorum. Uh, who cares?

People convert to other religions. Big deal.
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 02:40:43 am »
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Religious freedom includes the freedom to embrace, abandon or change religion. It also includes the right to share your faith with anyone willing to listen.

The notion that if you are ethnically Askenazi then you should or ought practise Judaism [or be an atheist] is nonsense. Religious freedom includes the freedom of persons of Askenazi descent to embrace any religion, including the belief in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Part of the religious freedom of Christians is the freedom to share their faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ to any person whom is willing to listen, including people of Askenazi descent.

Askenazi folk whom have exercised their religious freedom by embracing Jesus Christ don't forfeit their right to organize fellow believers, host conferences or hire speakers. What is being suggested is here is utterly outrageous. The alternative is demanding that Christians shun these people. While some Jews may shun such folks for theological reasons, it makes no theological sense for a Christian to shun another human being for embracing Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 10:54:33 am »
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So some Jews who converted to Christianity support Rick Santorum. Uh, who cares?

Jews for Jesus are not...typical converts.  They still pray in Hebrew, refer to Jesus as "Yeshua," use an Old Testament-heavy liturgy, and sometimes even still keep Kosher or the Sabbath.  It's...a very weird movement, and a lot of Jews accuse Jews for Jesus of being primarily a kind of conversion plot to trick Jews into thinking that they can accept Jesus and still be Jewish.  "Messianic Jews" would respond by saying that they aren't "Christian" at all, but rather Jews who accept the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and that he was Jesus of Nazareth.
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 11:07:40 am »
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Mikado- I agree. As a Christian, I can say that there are not many things that seperate us from our Jewish brethren but one is the divinity of Jesus Christ...and on that one I believe if you accept Him you are a Christian and if you do not, but believe most else waht we believe- you are likely Jewish
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 02:40:11 pm »
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Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.

"Messianic" Judaism is as much an oxymoron as "kosher pork". They are considered apostates among Jews if of Jewish origin -- or frauds if they are missionaries not of Jewish origin (some of these fellows had no idea of the significance of Shema Yisrael and did not know what a bagel is). One need not obey kosher dietary laws to be Jewish (Reform), but accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and especially the Christian Trinity defines one as a Christian.

Jews are not going to vote anywhere near a majority for any Republican nominee for President. The only place in which  the difference between the Jewish vote going 70% for President Obama and going 90% for President Obama will be those states likely to be close anyway. It could be the difference between winning and losing Arizona, Indiana, and Missouri.
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 02:41:02 pm »
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So some Jews who converted to Christianity support Rick Santorum. Uh, who cares?

Jews for Jesus are not...typical converts.  They still pray in Hebrew, refer to Jesus as "Yeshua," use an Old Testament-heavy liturgy, and sometimes even still keep Kosher or the Sabbath.  It's...a very weird movement, and a lot of Jews accuse Jews for Jesus of being primarily a kind of conversion plot to trick Jews into thinking that they can accept Jesus and still be Jewish.  "Messianic Jews" would respond by saying that they aren't "Christian" at all, but rather Jews who accept the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and that he was Jesus of Nazareth.
 

This, they really are a conversion plot.  I doubt Santorum would like it if a group people calling themselves Catholics formed a group called Christians for Mohammed and started actively coordinating with Muslim religious organizations to convert Christians to de facto Islam.  Actually...wow...I am trying to imagine the rage that would come from the Christian right if such a group became active all across the U.S.  lol
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 04:00:27 pm »
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Let's put it this way. Of course, people have a right to choose religion and that includes the right to convert from Judaism to Christianity or even to continue practicing Jewish customs while acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah. It is also completely legit for people to be trying to induce conversions from whatever face to whatever other faith.

The problem is not legal or moral, but political. In the Jewish community at large, attempts at conversion to Christianity (or anything else) are viewed with extreme hostility. And once you acknowledge the right of people to convert and to evangelize you also have to acknowledge the right of the other people to dislike those who convert and evangelize. Converts have always been viewed in Jewish communities at large with high disdain - for all practical purposes, they are considered as having cut themselves from the community. Nor are potential missionaries viewed favorably - they are considered to be enemies of the community, set on destroying it. And, of course, Jews for Jesus are a lot worse from this standpoint - they are viewed as converts, who attempt to insinuate themselves into the community through false advertising, so as to capture more converts. This would be, in particular, the view among the Orthodox, we've been discussing here so much as potential Republican recruits.

Anyway.... A politician who publically identifies himself with what is viewed as a missionary anti-Jewish outfit, obviously, would have trouble attracting Jewish support. It's less of a problem for some of the secular Jews (though they would have a strongly negative reaction, but it wouldn't be a dominant motive) - but they won't vote Republican anyway. Interestingly, it is not such a big problem for the Russians - they are sufficiently confused in their Jewishness not to, in general, have the more commonly visceral reaction of other Jews; in fact, in Russia itself there have been in recent decades prominent converts who became Orthodox priests and theologians, who managed to attract sizeable following from among the Jews. It is viewed much less starkly there, you may convert and still maintain some cultural Jewishness. By converting you do not die for the rest of your friends and family - as you would for many other Jews. But it would, definitely, be a problem for the Orthodox. If the Republican presidential candidate gets too closely identified w/ Jews for Jesus, he might loose the entire Orthodox block voting in a blink.

But the key here is, how close is that identification. I would think, that would take a lot more than speaking at a paid event.

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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 04:03:05 pm »
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Religious freedom includes the freedom to embrace, abandon or change religion. It also includes the right to share your faith with anyone willing to listen.

The notion that if you are ethnically Askenazi then you should or ought practise Judaism [or be an atheist] is nonsense. Religious freedom includes the freedom of persons of Askenazi descent to embrace any religion, including the belief in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Part of the religious freedom of Christians is the freedom to share their faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ to any person whom is willing to listen, including people of Askenazi descent.

Askenazi folk whom have exercised their religious freedom by embracing Jesus Christ don't forfeit their right to organize fellow believers, host conferences or hire speakers. What is being suggested is here is utterly outrageous. The alternative is demanding that Christians shun these people. While some Jews may shun such folks for theological reasons, it makes no theological sense for a Christian to shun another human being for embracing Jesus Christ.

They have every right to do all of that. And the rest of the Jews have every right to dislike them. And evey politician has to understand that by getting closely identified with them, he antagonizes other Jews.
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2012, 04:12:28 pm »
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Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.

"Messianic" Judaism is as much an oxymoron as "kosher pork". They are considered apostates among Jews if of Jewish origin -- or frauds if they are missionaries not of Jewish origin (some of these fellows had no idea of the significance of Shema Yisrael and did not know what a bagel is). One need not obey kosher dietary laws to be Jewish (Reform), but accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and especially the Christian Trinity defines one as a Christian.

Jews are not going to vote anywhere near a majority for any Republican nominee for President. The only place in which  the difference between the Jewish vote going 70% for President Obama and going 90% for President Obama will be those states likely to be close anyway. It could be the difference between winning and losing Arizona, Indiana, and Missouri.
I have doubts as to whether most messianic jews believe in trinity doctrine.
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 04:18:02 pm »
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Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.

"Messianic" Judaism is as much an oxymoron as "kosher pork". They are considered apostates among Jews if of Jewish origin -- or frauds if they are missionaries not of Jewish origin (some of these fellows had no idea of the significance of Shema Yisrael and did not know what a bagel is). One need not obey kosher dietary laws to be Jewish (Reform), but accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and especially the Christian Trinity defines one as a Christian.

Jews are not going to vote anywhere near a majority for any Republican nominee for President. The only place in which  the difference between the Jewish vote going 70% for President Obama and going 90% for President Obama will be those states likely to be close anyway. It could be the difference between winning and losing Arizona, Indiana, and Missouri.
I have doubts as to whether most messianic jews believe in trinity doctrine.
 

A lot of them certainly do, but in any event, even if they did they'd still be pariahs at best.
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 04:18:27 pm »
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Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.

"Messianic" Judaism is as much an oxymoron as "kosher pork". They are considered apostates among Jews if of Jewish origin -- or frauds if they are missionaries not of Jewish origin (some of these fellows had no idea of the significance of Shema Yisrael and did not know what a bagel is). One need not obey kosher dietary laws to be Jewish (Reform), but accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and especially the Christian Trinity defines one as a Christian.

Jews are not going to vote anywhere near a majority for any Republican nominee for President. The only place in which  the difference between the Jewish vote going 70% for President Obama and going 90% for President Obama will be those states likely to be close anyway. It could be the difference between winning and losing Arizona, Indiana, and Missouri.
I have doubts as to whether most messianic jews believe in trinity doctrine.
 

A lot of them certainly do, but in any event, even if they didn't they'd still be pariahs at best.
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 09:11:17 pm »
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Religious freedom includes the freedom to embrace, abandon or change religion. It also includes the right to share your faith with anyone willing to listen.

The notion that if you are ethnically Askenazi then you should or ought practise Judaism [or be an atheist] is nonsense. Religious freedom includes the freedom of persons of Askenazi descent to embrace any religion, including the belief in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Part of the religious freedom of Christians is the freedom to share their faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ to any person whom is willing to listen, including people of Askenazi descent.

Askenazi folk whom have exercised their religious freedom by embracing Jesus Christ don't forfeit their right to organize fellow believers, host conferences or hire speakers. What is being suggested is here is utterly outrageous. The alternative is demanding that Christians shun these people. While some Jews may shun such folks for theological reasons, it makes no theological sense for a Christian to shun another human being for embracing Jesus Christ.

They have every right to do all of that. And the rest of the Jews have every right to dislike them. And evey politician has to understand that by getting closely identified with them, he antagonizes other Jews.

Sure they have the "right" to, just as people have the right to vote against Jewish politicians for that reason or hate Obama and vote against him because he's black. That doesn't make it any less morally repugnant.

So some Jews who converted to Christianity support Rick Santorum. Uh, who cares?

Jews for Jesus are not...typical converts.  They still pray in Hebrew, refer to Jesus as "Yeshua," use an Old Testament-heavy liturgy, and sometimes even still keep Kosher or the Sabbath.  It's...a very weird movement, and a lot of Jews accuse Jews for Jesus of being primarily a kind of conversion plot to trick Jews into thinking that they can accept Jesus and still be Jewish.  "Messianic Jews" would respond by saying that they aren't "Christian" at all, but rather Jews who accept the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and that he was Jesus of Nazareth.
 

This, they really are a conversion plot.  I doubt Santorum would like it if a group people calling themselves Catholics formed a group called Christians for Mohammed and started actively coordinating with Muslim religious organizations to convert Christians to de facto Islam.  Actually...wow...I am trying to imagine the rage that would come from the Christian right if such a group became active all across the U.S.  lol

That's not really a good analogy, since in embracing Islamic doctrines on Jesus they'd be going against the Nicene Creed and Christianity and would cease being Christian. And would obviously not be Catholic since they'd hold views entirely against the Vatican's teachings and papal edicts. A better analogy is some group that would go around preaching that to truly follow Jesus you'd have to convert to Islam and accept Islam teachings on Jesus, since this is kind of what mainstream Islam actually preaches I wouldn't find it anymore "offensive" than standard attempts to convert Christians to Islam.

The fact that Messianic Jews keep Jewish traditions and all doesn't strike me as very important. So basically people are saying it's OK for Jews to convert to Christianity as long as they abandon all Jewish traditions in the process but not if they do it and keep them? That's really quite odd. I should note that it's quite common for people to keep traditions from their old church if they convert, for example people raised in churches that put a big emphasis on Lent might still put a lot of focus on it even if they convert to a church that doesn't, or do the Sign of the Cross if raised that way even if converting to a church that doesn't, and that isn't controversial at all.

And really the only real controversy I see in the Messianic Jewish doctrine is that if they accept all the teachings about Jesus they'd have to accept the New Testament which makes it pretty hard to argue as well that all the Old Testament kosher laws and whatnot are still in effect. But really that's their business not mine, nor do I see it as a reason to vote against any politician supported by them (not that there aren't hordes of other reasons to vote against Santorum.)
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 09:20:31 pm »
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If you want a Christian analogy, one that might work is those groups that incorporate a lot of Eastern Religion and New Age type practices and still claim to be Christian. I'm sure many evangelicals would dispute that they are Christian, but I doubt someone who converts from a "standard" Christian denomination to one of them would rile any more controversy with anyone that someone who flat out converts from a Christian denomination to Buddhism or some other type of Eastern religion.
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2012, 10:01:51 am »
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And really the only real controversy I see in the Messianic Jewish doctrine is that if they accept all the teachings about Jesus they'd have to accept the New Testament which makes it pretty hard to argue as well that all the Old Testament kosher laws and whatnot are still in effect.

The "controversy" is that they have committed "high treason" and try to induce others do the same. From the proper Jewish religious standpoint, they have abandoned Judaism and embraced Christianity and are set on a mission to convert other Jews to Christianity. In general, Jews (at least, religious Jews) do not look well at any outfit that tries to convert Jews, and Messianic Jews' missionary activity is directed specifically at Jews. You know, even many fairly moderate, not necessarily Orthodox, Jews fret a lot about things like intermarriage and assimilation and such. And here is this whole missionary outfit, bent on destroying the community. Add to this the "false advertising" (Christians claiming to practice Judaism to confuse the simpleminded and the uneducated), and you can see, why there is not much love lost.

Then, again, I don't think they matter enough for most people to care. Talking to them, speaking in their meetings isn't going to matter much, methinks. If a presidential candidate were to actively ally himself w/ their missionary activity, it would be another matter. Not because of the Jews-for-Jesus themselves, but because a US President bent on converting the Jews would be viewed as a dangerous and committed enemy.
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2012, 10:10:17 am »
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Religious freedom includes the freedom to embrace, abandon or change religion. It also includes the right to share your faith with anyone willing to listen.

The notion that if you are ethnically Askenazi then you should or ought practise Judaism [or be an atheist] is nonsense. Religious freedom includes the freedom of persons of Askenazi descent to embrace any religion, including the belief in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Part of the religious freedom of Christians is the freedom to share their faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ to any person whom is willing to listen, including people of Askenazi descent.

Askenazi folk whom have exercised their religious freedom by embracing Jesus Christ don't forfeit their right to organize fellow believers, host conferences or hire speakers. What is being suggested is here is utterly outrageous. The alternative is demanding that Christians shun these people. While some Jews may shun such folks for theological reasons, it makes no theological sense for a Christian to shun another human being for embracing Jesus Christ.

They have every right to do all of that. And the rest of the Jews have every right to dislike them. And evey politician has to understand that by getting closely identified with them, he antagonizes other Jews.

Sure they have the "right" to, just as people have the right to vote against Jewish politicians for that reason or hate Obama and vote against him because he's black. That doesn't make it any less morally repugnant.

So some Jews who converted to Christianity support Rick Santorum. Uh, who cares?

Jews for Jesus are not...typical converts.  They still pray in Hebrew, refer to Jesus as "Yeshua," use an Old Testament-heavy liturgy, and sometimes even still keep Kosher or the Sabbath.  It's...a very weird movement, and a lot of Jews accuse Jews for Jesus of being primarily a kind of conversion plot to trick Jews into thinking that they can accept Jesus and still be Jewish.  "Messianic Jews" would respond by saying that they aren't "Christian" at all, but rather Jews who accept the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and that he was Jesus of Nazareth.
 

This, they really are a conversion plot.  I doubt Santorum would like it if a group people calling themselves Catholics formed a group called Christians for Mohammed and started actively coordinating with Muslim religious organizations to convert Christians to de facto Islam.  Actually...wow...I am trying to imagine the rage that would come from the Christian right if such a group became active all across the U.S.  lol

That's not really a good analogy, since in embracing Islamic doctrines on Jesus they'd be going against the Nicene Creed and Christianity and would cease being Christian. And would obviously not be Catholic since they'd hold views entirely against the Vatican's teachings and papal edicts. A better analogy is some group that would go around preaching that to truly follow Jesus you'd have to convert to Islam and accept Islam teachings on Jesus, since this is kind of what mainstream Islam actually preaches I wouldn't find it anymore "offensive" than standard attempts to convert Christians to Islam.

The fact that Messianic Jews keep Jewish traditions and all doesn't strike me as very important. So basically people are saying it's OK for Jews to convert to Christianity as long as they abandon all Jewish traditions in the process but not if they do it and keep them? That's really quite odd. I should note that it's quite common for people to keep traditions from their old church if they convert, for example people raised in churches that put a big emphasis on Lent might still put a lot of focus on it even if they convert to a church that doesn't, or do the Sign of the Cross if raised that way even if converting to a church that doesn't, and that isn't controversial at all.

And really the only real controversy I see in the Messianic Jewish doctrine is that if they accept all the teachings about Jesus they'd have to accept the New Testament which makes it pretty hard to argue as well that all the Old Testament kosher laws and whatnot are still in effect. But really that's their business not mine, nor do I see it as a reason to vote against any politician supported by them (not that there aren't hordes of other reasons to vote against Santorum.)
 

The Jews for Jesus people believe in the trinity doctrine, believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, go around trying to convert Jews to their brand of evangelical Christianity.  It's just as obvious that they're not Jews as it is that the people in my analogy would not be Christians.  Also, with all due respect, whether or not you see it as a reason to vote against someone is not the point.  What matters is that the Jews who might conceivably vote for Santorum are also the most likely to see any association with Jews for Jesus as a big reason to vote against Santorum (and by big I mean that it would make Santorum a non-starter).  I'm a fairly secular reform Jew and I could go on for weeks about how much I abhor the Jews for Jesus groups, I can't even begin to imagine the intensity of the resentment Orthodox Jews almost certainly harbor towards them.  Of course, I would have never even considered voting for Santorum regardless, but still, you have to understand that the Messianic "Jewish" Christians are really the Pariahs of Judaism.  That said, I agree with ag that merely speaking at some of their events isn't enough of an association to cause a complete implosion in Santorum's support among Republican NYC Orthodox Jews (assuming it even exists in large enough numbers to be relevant, which I'm not sure I believe).  However, it could definitely cost him some votes and quite possibly enough for him to lose congressional districts he would've won, even without a full-scale implosion.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2012, 01:03:27 am »
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And really the only real controversy I see in the Messianic Jewish doctrine is that if they accept all the teachings about Jesus they'd have to accept the New Testament which makes it pretty hard to argue as well that all the Old Testament kosher laws and whatnot are still in effect.

The "controversy" is that they have committed "high treason" and try to induce others do the same. From the proper Jewish religious standpoint, they have abandoned Judaism and embraced Christianity and are set on a mission to convert other Jews to Christianity. In general, Jews (at least, religious Jews) do not look well at any outfit that tries to convert Jews, and Messianic Jews' missionary activity is directed specifically at Jews. You know, even many fairly moderate, not necessarily Orthodox, Jews fret a lot about things like intermarriage and assimilation and such. And here is this whole missionary outfit, bent on destroying the community. Add to this the "false advertising" (Christians claiming to practice Judaism to confuse the simpleminded and the uneducated), and you can see, why there is not much love lost.

Then, again, I don't think they matter enough for most people to care. Talking to them, speaking in their meetings isn't going to matter much, methinks. If a presidential candidate were to actively ally himself w/ their missionary activity, it would be another matter. Not because of the Jews-for-Jesus themselves, but because a US President bent on converting the Jews would be viewed as a dangerous and committed enemy.

1) The "proper" Jewish position is that the return of the Messiah ought to be acknowledged. That is incontrovertible. The debate is merely over whether, or not, Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

2) Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other such sects are as much "the Pariahs" of Christianity as Messianic Jews are of Judaism.  Basically, Seventh Day Adventists accept Jesus as the Messiah, and reinterpret the Old Testament from a Christian perspective. They celebrate the Sabbath, but, interpret Old Testament passages as commanding vegetarianism. Messianic Judaism accepts Jesus as the Messiah, and reinterprets Jewish tradition in that light. Messianic Judaism is certainly more "Jewish" and less "Christian" than the Seventh Day Adventists. That would make Messianic Judaism even more of a "pariah" among Christians than Seventh Day Adventists.   Calling them closet Christians is theological nonsense.

3) Messianic Jews have concluded that Jesus Christ was in fact the foretold Messiah. That is not "high treason." That is a theological disagreement. Labeling attempts to persuade other Jews to accept their theological beliefs can't be characterized as an attempt to "destroy" the community.

4) Some of the Jews whom have married Christians are raising their children as Christians. If this is merely a "fret," how could embracing a mishmash of the two be so much worse?
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2012, 10:57:39 am »
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BSB, you can make arguments as much as you like, but for whatever reason, they don't mesh with how actual Jews (of all stripes) respond to the Jews 4 Jesus.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2012, 11:24:44 am »
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I agree that Jews For Jesus are not actual Jews and a somewhat shady group, though ultimately harmless. My real issue is that the type of people that is being speculated this would hurt Santorum of wouldn't respond much better to simple "normal" conversions to Christianity. Someone born in Borough Park who ignored the "Messianic Judaism" nonsense and just became a Presbyterian or Catholic or evangelical or whatever likely would still be ostracized by that community. The idea of "hereditary religion" REALLY offends me, this is kind of a personal issue that hits close to home so I shouldn't go into the details, let me just say it's largely affected by the (admittedly more mild but still there) attitudes in some Catholic communities (not all or even most Catholics fall into this I'll admit, including the ones from my family, but hearing about the attitudes some take like that woman in the hospital who dealt with Nathan's Buddhist relative often quite hits a nerve.) But this isn't the place for that.

And as not even being a Republican it's really none of my business and how it'd affect my vote doesn't matter, sure. And yeah they have the right to think that way, just as people have the right to vote against anyone for being Jewish or vote against Obama for being black. My point is more that people who adhere to this type of thinking are more morally repugnant than Santorum, and that's saying A LOT.
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Torie
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2012, 12:29:00 pm »
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BRTD, I think the thing that really offends Jews is the trade name "infringement" as it were. If the Messianic Jews called themselves something other than Jews, or Jews for Jesus, it would be less of an issue. But it is a free country, and Jews don't have the exclusive legal right to the name, so that is that. It is complicated by the term Jews referring to both a religion and an ethnicity/tribe in common parlance.

Back in the 16th and 17th century, probably many Catholics would have preferred Protestants calling themselves something other than Christian, for that matter.

"Heretics" just are not that popular.
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brittain33
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2012, 12:33:12 pm »
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BRTD, I think the thing that really offends Jews is the trade name "infringement" as it were. If the Messianic Jews called themselves something other than Jews, or Jews for Jesus, it would be less of an issue. But it is a free country, and Jews don't have the exclusive legal right to the name, so that is that. It is complicated by the term Jews referring to both a religion and an ethnicity/tribe in common parlance.

I always like to think about how Christians would react if a Muslim evangelical organization started a group called Christians 4 Mohammad that claimed they were authentically Christian, but accepted Mohammad as the final prophet and adhered to the five pillars of Islam.

If an Islamic group (hard to analogize this in America to someone like Santorum) started doing joint appearances with Christians 4 Mohammad and said this showed their outreach to the Christian community, and I don't see why all those Christians just don't get over themselves and be broad-minded and accept that they're Christians too blah blah, well we can see how successful that would be.

There's also a very long and ugly history of Jews being compelled to convert which animates the Jewish reponse.
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