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Author Topic: What if in a Presidential election (2)..........  (Read 2244 times)
Lincoln Republican
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« on: March 30, 2012, 12:40:01 am »
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The Republican and the Democrat have a tie in the Electoral College 269/269.

All the electors remain faithful and cast their electoral vote as their state voted.

The election of course goes to the House.

The House votes 25 state delegations for the Republican and 25 state delegations for the Democrat.

How is the tie in the House broken or what is the next step?
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2012, 01:05:58 am »
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Probably some states would be a tie.

If the Democrats due well enough in the Congressional elections that they have the majority of 25 states, Obama will be re-elected with 270+ electoral votes, so this isn't happening. A 269-269 tie would favor Romney, but if people are going to be pissed if we have case number 5 of a Democrat winning the popular vote but not becoming President.

Anyways, much more likely than an electoral party tie is what happened in 1824, where no one got a majority. Could have happened in 1968 if Agnew hadn't sabotaged the peace talks. There's also the 1800 election, but that's irrelevant since it was pre-12 amendment. Or some random faithless electors could cause another 1836.
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 03:00:19 am »
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The parties would likely broker some sort of deal, such as one party gains the Presidency and the other a major piece of legislation, or go with the popular vote winner.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2012, 07:43:20 am »
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If the Electoral College deadlocks and the House deadlocks as well, then doesn't whoever the Senate picked as VP become acting president unless and until the House resolves the deadlock?
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 06:59:12 pm »
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The Republican and the Democrat have a tie in the Electoral College 269/269.

All the electors remain faithful and cast their electoral vote as their state voted.

The election of course goes to the House.

The House votes 25 state delegations for the Republican and 25 state delegations for the Democrat.

How is the tie in the House broken or what is the next step?
First of all, many states will split.  When they split, they will be marked as "undecided", so the house does not need to break evenly along state lines.  As Mr. Morden points out, the running mate selected Vice President by the Senate will become Acting President until such a time as the House appoints one of the candidates President.  As jfern said, that would likely involve some kind of shady deal; think 1876.
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 08:38:49 pm »
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The Republican and the Democrat have a tie in the Electoral College 269/269.

All the electors remain faithful and cast their electoral vote as their state voted.

The election of course goes to the House.

The House votes 25 state delegations for the Republican and 25 state delegations for the Democrat.

How is the tie in the House broken or what is the next step?

The precedent is well established.  Until and unless 26 States vote in favor of one or the other  (or possibly one of the three if a faithless elector voted for someone else to be President than he was supposed to) there is no President.

Over in the Senate, they'll need 51 Senators to chose who will be Vice-President and thus Acting President until the House chooses a President.  And I do mean 51 Senators, not 50 plus a VP.  The VP does not get to break this tie, and even if not all 100 Senators show up to vote, it still takes 51 to elect.

If neither a President or a Vice-President is chosen then under current succession law, whoever is Speaker on noon, January 20, becomes Acting President until one of the two elections is settled. (Assuming the Speaker is eligible, if not then it continues down the list until someone eligible is found.)
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My ballot:
Haley(R) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 08:49:16 pm »
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Incidentally, there is a chance for shenanigans in the Senate.  Unless a quorum of two-thirds of the Senators shows up, they can't vote for a Vice President.  So if the party that loses the popular vote wins a Senate majority, it is possible for the Senate minority to block his election by not showing up.

Much more difficult to pull that off in the House, since if even a single member from a State delegate shows up, he could cast that State's vote, so to pull a House boycott, a party would have to have the entirety of 17 delegations and yet have the other party control 26.
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My ballot:
Haley(R) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 09:48:30 pm »
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These answers are great. 

Very knowledgeable and informative.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2012, 10:16:08 pm »
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If the House Speaker and/or President pro temp don't actually want to serve as acting president, can they refuse?  Or is the Speaker automatically acting president, as long as he's Speaker of the House and the pres. and VP slots are vacant?

In the modern era, isn't there a good chance that the House and Senate *wouldn't* resolve an electoral college deadlock, as the voters view the presidency as the most important office by far, and wouldn't look kindly on members of Congress of the party they support trading the presidency away for anything?

If, say, you had a situation in which Obama/Biden went up against Romney/Rubio in 2012, and there's an electoral college tie, and the House deadlocks, but the Senate picks either Biden or Rubio for VP (depending on which party has a majority), might we really just end up with Acting President Biden or Rubio for two years, at which point the 2014 midterms would determine whether the House can actually resolve the 2012 presidential election, and elect either Obama or Romney to the remainder of the term?

EDIT: Actually, that's not a bad what-if scenario, if anyone wants to write a timeline for it.
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2012, 12:54:27 am »
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It would be more likely that the majority party in the House in such a situation would "temporarily" select a Speaker for just January 20 for the purpose of becoming Acting President and then the old Speaker would resume the Speakership.  The way the law is written, the Speaker (or the PPT) would have to give up their Congressional seat to become President, even if it just to be Acting President.  However, if both the Speaker and the PPT were to refuse to resign, possibly then the succession would fall to the Cabinet.  However, any election likely to put Pelosi back in as Speaker would see Obama easily reelected. So I'd say it's a sure bet that if we do get an electoral deadlock, the Republicans will find someone willing to give up their House seat to become Acting President.

(Note that a deadlocked Senate almost certainly means Inouye would remain PPT, as Biden would be able to break a tie on that vote when the 113th Senate organizes.  You'd need a 50-49 Republican Senate with one vacancy to get a Republican PPT and a Senate deadlocked over selecting a VP.)
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My ballot:
Haley(R) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
Mr. Morden
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2012, 03:11:17 am »
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Isn't it true that the House can legally elect a non-member of Congress as Speaker?  So then, in an Obama/Romney deadlock, if the GOP still had a majority of members, but not a majority of state delegations, they could just elect Romney Speaker of the House, which then makes him acting prez. if both the House and Senate are deadlocked on who president and VP are to be.
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2012, 03:06:29 pm »
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There would be all kinds of lawsuits if that were to happen.
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2012, 03:47:24 pm »
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I guess they revote until one of them gets more votes.

If voting is still ongoing by Inauguration Day, well, the Vice President acts as President (and if the same thing happens to him, the Speaker of the House, and so on).
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2012, 07:17:03 pm »
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EDIT: Actually, that's not a bad what-if scenario, if anyone wants to write a timeline for it.

A timeline based on that very scenario occurring in 1972 exists on alternatehistory.com called Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72, written by a user named Drew. Butterflies eventually envelop the whole word; there's more than 60 pages of material, and he's still on 1979. I strongly encourage you to check it out; one of the most detailed what-if timelines I have ever read.
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 12:46:34 pm »
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There would be all kinds of lawsuits if that were to happen.

There would be, but would they succeed? As was said, the house can elect anyone to be speaker, so it isn't actually against the rules (it's probably pushing the intent of them a very long way though...), and I'm guessing the court would rule that.
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 06:14:45 pm »
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The parties would likely broker some sort of deal, such as one party gains the Presidency and the other a major piece of legislation, or go with the popular vote winner.
am curious what it be like if that happens
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J. J.
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 11:22:52 pm »
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Isn't it true that the House can legally elect a non-member of Congress as Speaker?  So then, in an Obama/Romney deadlock, if the GOP still had a majority of members, but not a majority of state delegations, they could just elect Romney Speaker of the House, which then makes him acting prez. if both the House and Senate are deadlocked on who president and VP are to be.


Very true.
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J. J.

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