Just in case you still had any hope left for this country...

[Eraserhead]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10926817-hospital-mom-booted-from-er-who-died-in-jail-was-treated-appropriately

[Simfan34]

I don't even think this can even be politicized! This is just terrible, and wrong.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Tragic, but I don't see anything to indicate that the ER did anything wrong.  A sprained ankle is painful, but usually not life-threatening.  Once they determined there was nothing they could detect that was life-threatening, they had no obligation to provide free medical care, and her refusal to leave justified calling in the police.

[John Dibble]

Tragic, but I don't see anything to indicate that the ER did anything wrong.  A sprained ankle is painful, but usually not life-threatening.  Once they determined there was nothing they could detect that was life-threatening, they had no obligation to provide free medical care, and her refusal to leave justified calling in the police.

Agreed. This is tragic, but not really something that happened due to malicious intent.

[Vosem]

A hospital cannot treat everyone who comes in with a sprained ankle or a nosebleed; they have people who are about to die, and 99.99% (crude estimate; probably lowballing it a little) recover quickly from a sprained ankle or a nosebleed. The other 0.01% is very sad, but there's really nothing that can be done.

[opebo]

A hospital cannot treat everyone who comes in with a sprained ankle or a nosebleed; they have people who are about to die, and 99.99% (crude estimate; probably lowballing it a little) recover quickly from a sprained ankle or a nosebleed. The other 0.01% is very sad, but there's really nothing that can be done.

Come on, you're being disingenuous.  Obviously this woman died because of what the owning class did to her.  Had she not been poor she would have had proper medical treatment - its that simple.

[Vosem]

A hospital cannot treat everyone who comes in with a sprained ankle or a nosebleed; they have people who are about to die, and 99.99% (crude estimate; probably lowballing it a little) recover quickly from a sprained ankle or a nosebleed. The other 0.01% is very sad, but there's really nothing that can be done.

Come on, you're being disingenuous.  Obviously this woman died because of what the owning class did to her.  Had she not been poor she would have had proper medical treatment - its that simple.

I'll grant you that had this woman had significantly more money, she could have lived, but (continuing a conversation from another thread) nobody consciously killed her. If wealth is distributed completely equally, then very few people will be willing to pay to have sprained ankles and nosebleeds checked so intensively these things show up; all that'll happen is everyone will die of these things, instead of just most people. When you share the wealth equally, all you do is share misery equally. This has been proven many times throughout history.

[Eraserhead]

I don't really consider myself much of a bleeding heart but some of you guys are frighteningly cold-hearted. If someone shows up to a hospital or hospitals repeatedly complaining about agonizing pain, they should be treated. Period. They would be in any country that was serious about maintaining a reasonable quality of life for its less fortunate citizens.

Whether they were legally required to or not, they not only failed to do what was morally right by giving her the proper treatments but then they called the police on her and had her thrown in a jail cell where she died screaming bloody murder. Nothing seems wrong here? Nothing seems a bit off? There is something fundamentally wrong about how this country treats its poor and its nothing short of disgusting.

[dead0man]

How do you tell the people who are really in "agonizing" pain from the guy telling you he is in "agonizing" pain just to get attention or drugs?  Have you ever known somebody that worked in an ER in a city hospital?  Ugg, that is NOT an easy job.  It makes inner city middle school teaching look like a dream job (although to be fair, I've never known someone who did that....or at least I've never talked about it with someone that did).

But indeed, this is a tragedy and it happens more often than it should.  Something should probably be done, but I don't know what.  But if you think this country finally has driven off the edge, Canada isn't far away.  And nevermind the better health care, legal prostitution!

[Eraserhead]

Yes, I do know a couple of people who work in hospitals/ER and I understand that it is an extremely taxing job. That still doesn't excuse this. And I agree, while Canada is far from perfect itself, its sounding better and better everyday!

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

A hospital cannot treat everyone who comes in with a sprained ankle or a nosebleed; they have people who are about to die, and 99.99% (crude estimate; probably lowballing it a little) recover quickly from a sprained ankle or a nosebleed. The other 0.01% is very sad, but there's really nothing that can be done.

For the most part, you're right - sadly, not everyone can be saved.  Even in the best of medical systems, mistakes will always be made, and the chaotic nature of the earth and its processes will inevitably lead to uncertainty,  meaning that even with the very best minds and technology, we'll never reach perfection.

[Purch]

Hindsight is twenty twenty. Until half of you go through the process of figuring out who really needs help in the er and who's just wants to utilize the system you really have no right to speak negatively about the people in this particular case. There's no full proof way to know who needs treatment and who's wasting your time.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Hindsight is twenty twenty. Until half of you go through the process of figuring out who really needs help in the er and who's just wants to utilize the system you really have no right to speak negatively about the people in this particular case. There's no full proof way to know who needs treatment and who's wasting your time.

Agreed.  Meteorologists get criticized all the time.  If everyone had to take only my freshman and sophomore classes, criticism would probably be down to 10% of what it is now.  It's easy to criticize when you're not the one making the decisions.

[opebo]

I'll grant you that had this woman had significantly more money, she could have lived, but (continuing a conversation from another thread) nobody consciously killed her. If wealth is distributed completely equally, then very few people will be willing to pay to have sprained ankles and nosebleeds checked so intensively these things show up; all that'll happen is everyone will die of these things, instead of just most people. When you share the wealth equally, all you do is share misery equally. This has been proven many times throughout history.

That hasn't been proven at all Vosem.  While it is true that socialist redistribution doesn't make life perfect, it does improve the quality of life for the vast majority of people, while not creating any real miseries (only a loss of privilege) for the masters.  It increases the 'average' quality of life enormously.

[Vosem]

I'll grant you that had this woman had significantly more money, she could have lived, but (continuing a conversation from another thread) nobody consciously killed her. If wealth is distributed completely equally, then very few people will be willing to pay to have sprained ankles and nosebleeds checked so intensively these things show up; all that'll happen is everyone will die of these things, instead of just most people. When you share the wealth equally, all you do is share misery equally. This has been proven many times throughout history.

That hasn't been proven at all Vosem.  While it is true that socialist redistribution doesn't make life perfect, it does improve the quality of life for the vast majority of people, while not creating any real miseries (only a loss of privilege) for the masters.  It increases the 'average' quality of life enormously.

In the countries where it has been tried, average people gain only a little, not enough to really increase their standard of living, while the standard of living of the wealthy plummets. There's no way to 'share all the wealth.' You can only 'share all the misery.'

[Eraserhead]

Hindsight is twenty twenty. Until half of you go through the process of figuring out who really needs help in the er and who's just wants to utilize the system you really have no right to speak negatively about the people in this particular case. There's no full proof way to know who needs treatment and who's wasting your time.

What's so difficult to understand about this? If a poor woman runs into a hospital screaming about horrible pain, you should help her if it's at all possible. You shouldn't worry about how she is going to pay for her treatment right off the bat (or at least we wouldn't do this in a non-ruthless, less money driven society). And if the ER literally had no ability to help her because they were already overrun or understaffed or whatever (and I see nothing to suggest that was the case here) then the least they could have done was point her in the direction of somewhere else that might be able to help her. Instead, they had her taken off of the property and arrested by some cops that were apparently either pretty malicious or incredibly dumb.

And of course I have a right to speak negatively about these creeps, it's a free country (supposedly).

[Meeker]

Those officers should have returned her to the hospital immediately based on the behavior described at the jail. I also kind of doubt that a white guy in a suit would have been arrested for continuing to state he's in pain and wanting more treatment, but that's a separate issue.

[Eraserhead]

I also kind of doubt that a white guy in a suit would have been arrested for continuing to state he's in pain and wanting more treatment, but that's a separate issue.

Agreed, unfortunately.

[memphis]

I also kind of doubt that a white guy in a suit would have been arrested for continuing to state he's in pain and wanting more treatment, but that's a separate issue.

Agreed, unfortunately.

Can't speak for the suit part, but young white men are pretty much always dismissed as just looking for pills if a diagnosis is not readily apparant. I've had multiple bad experiences with our health care system. Women get way better treatment.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Hindsight is twenty twenty. Until half of you go through the process of figuring out who really needs help in the er and who's just wants to utilize the system you really have no right to speak negatively about the people in this particular case. There's no full proof way to know who needs treatment and who's wasting your time.

What's so difficult to understand about this? If a poor woman runs into a hospital screaming about horrible pain, you should help her if it's at all possible. You shouldn't worry about how she is going to pay for her treatment right off the bat (or at least we wouldn't do this in a non-ruthless, money driven society). And if the ER literally had no ability to help her because they were already overrun or understaffed or whatever (and I see nothing to suggest that was the case here) then the least they could have done was point her in the direction of somewhere else that might help her. Instead, they had her taken off the property and arrested by some cops that were apparently either pretty malicious or incredibly dumb.

And of course I have a right to speak negatively about these creeps, it's a free country (supposedly).

Except what you wrote bears almost no resemblance to reality.  They did check her out even doing an X-Ray and ultrasound and all they were able to diagnose that was wrong with her was the sprain that she had reported on her first trip to the ER.  They'd already done all they could do with that diagnosis.  Contrary to what you said, they even gave her pain medication, but if they had not, it would have done nothing about the clots that killed her.

When she returned eight hours later, complaining of abdominal pain, they were possibly overly dismissive of her symptoms.  That likely was in part because even when there is an embolism from a leg injury, it doesn't end up there.  It usually ends up in the lungs causing chest pain, not abdominal pain.  With no apparent linkage, I'm not surprised that they suspected she was trying to get some more free opiates.

[memphis]

Hindsight is twenty twenty. Until half of you go through the process of figuring out who really needs help in the er and who's just wants to utilize the system you really have no right to speak negatively about the people in this particular case. There's no full proof way to know who needs treatment and who's wasting your time.

What's so difficult to understand about this? If a poor woman runs into a hospital screaming about horrible pain, you should help her if it's at all possible. You shouldn't worry about how she is going to pay for her treatment right off the bat (or at least we wouldn't do this in a non-ruthless, money driven society). And if the ER literally had no ability to help her because they were already overrun or understaffed or whatever (and I see nothing to suggest that was the case here) then the least they could have done was point her in the direction of somewhere else that might help her. Instead, they had her taken off the property and arrested by some cops that were apparently either pretty malicious or incredibly dumb.

And of course I have a right to speak negatively about these creeps, it's a free country (supposedly).

Except what you wrote bears almost no resemblance to reality.  They did check her out even doing an X-Ray and ultrasound and all they were able to diagnose that was wrong with her was the sprain that she had reported on her first trip to the ER.  They'd already done all they could do with that diagnosis.  Contrary to what you said, they even gave her pain medication, but if they had not, it would have done nothing about the clots that killed her.

When she returned eight hours later, complaining of abdominal pain, they were possibly overly dismissive of her symptoms.  That likely was in part because even when there is an embolism from a leg injury, it doesn't end up there.  It usually ends up in the lungs causing chest pain, not abdominal pain.  With no apparent linkage, I'm not surprised that they suspected she was trying to get some more free opiates.

Which only highlights a major drawback to how heavily restricted these drugs are. If they were more available to the public, hospitals and doctors could focus on solving medical issues, rather than trying to screen people for drug abuse, a task they are ill-suited for.

[Eraserhead]

Hindsight is twenty twenty. Until half of you go through the process of figuring out who really needs help in the er and who's just wants to utilize the system you really have no right to speak negatively about the people in this particular case. There's no full proof way to know who needs treatment and who's wasting your time.

What's so difficult to understand about this? If a poor woman runs into a hospital screaming about horrible pain, you should help her if it's at all possible. You shouldn't worry about how she is going to pay for her treatment right off the bat (or at least we wouldn't do this in a non-ruthless, money driven society). And if the ER literally had no ability to help her because they were already overrun or understaffed or whatever (and I see nothing to suggest that was the case here) then the least they could have done was point her in the direction of somewhere else that might help her. Instead, they had her taken off the property and arrested by some cops that were apparently either pretty malicious or incredibly dumb.

And of course I have a right to speak negatively about these creeps, it's a free country (supposedly).

Except what you wrote bears almost no resemblance to reality.  They did check her out even doing an X-Ray and ultrasound and all they were able to diagnose that was wrong with her was the sprain that she had reported on her first trip to the ER.  They'd already done all they could do with that diagnosis.  Contrary to what you said, they even gave her pain medication, but if they had not, it would have done nothing about the clots that killed her.

When she returned eight hours later, complaining of abdominal pain, they were possibly overly dismissive of her symptoms.  That likely was in part because even when there is an embolism from a leg injury, it doesn't end up there.  It usually ends up in the lungs causing chest pain, not abdominal pain.  With no apparent linkage, I'm not surprised that they suspected she was trying to get some more free opiates.

I obviously hadn't read the version of the story you linked to so fair enough but that still doesn't explain why they felt the need to call the cops on her and why the cops let her die in a jail cell, screaming and moaning.

And let's be honest here: the main reason they were suspicious of her trying to get more "free opiates" was because she was poor and black. No wealthy white person would have been treated in this manner.

[opebo]

In the countries where it has been tried, average people gain only a little, not enough to really increase their standard of living, while the standard of living of the wealthy plummets.

Well duh.  Vosem, there are only a few wealthy, living vampirically upon the masses by sucking a little of each of their production and piling it up.  This is why the wealthy are only 0.1% or so, and many hundreds must toil all the day to make their surplus.  Certainly it is true that slaughtering them isn't going to make the poor wealthy, only a little better off.  Its more about self respect than material goods.

[Vosem]

In the countries where it has been tried, average people gain only a little, not enough to really increase their standard of living, while the standard of living of the wealthy plummets.

Well duh.  Vosem, there are only a few wealthy, living vampirically upon the masses by sucking a little of each of their production and piling it up.  This is why the wealthy are only 0.1% or so, and many hundreds must toil all the day to make their surplus.  Certainly it is true that slaughtering them isn't going to make the poor wealthy, only a little better off.  Its more about self respect than material goods.

Did you read what I wrote? If you do spread the wealth, the standard of living for the wealthy plummets, while that for the poor generally stays at about the same level (unless, of course, the cause for the wealth-spreading was violent, in which case the standard of living for the poor generally drops rather ominously too). If your standard of living remains the same or worse, how does that increase your self-respect?

I'm not sure there's much of a correlation between economic status and self-respect anyway, but I know little about this topic, so feel free to prove me wrong, or something.

[Eraserhead]

In the countries where it has been tried, average people gain only a little, not enough to really increase their standard of living, while the standard of living of the wealthy plummets.

Well duh.  Vosem, there are only a few wealthy, living vampirically upon the masses by sucking a little of each of their production and piling it up.  This is why the wealthy are only 0.1% or so, and many hundreds must toil all the day to make their surplus.  Certainly it is true that slaughtering them isn't going to make the poor wealthy, only a little better off.  Its more about self respect than material goods.

Did you read what I wrote? If you do spread the wealth, the standard of living for the wealthy plummets, while that for the poor generally stays at about the same level (unless, of course, the cause for the wealth-spreading was violent, in which case the standard of living for the poor generally drops rather ominously too). If your standard of living remains the same or worse, how does that increase your self-respect?

I'm not sure there's much of a correlation between economic status and self-respect anyway, but I know little about this topic, so feel free to prove me wrong, or something.

Do you have actual data to back up that conclusion?