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Author Topic: Santorum-Paul alliance formed in WA  (Read 1712 times)
Bacon King
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2012, 01:43:50 am »

God bless these Paultards.

Anything for THE DELEGATES!
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 01:47:18 am »
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Florida is supposed to be proportional. I'm not sure if Virginia did anything wrong.

Didn't they have caucus level turnout for their primary? Seems fair to me to redo a true VA primary now that they know their votes will count.

They had terrible turnout because several campaigns failed to collect enough signatures based on what I'm pretty sure is a state law.  Punish Virginia post hoc because of a state law that was only relevant because only Romney and Paul had their asses together?
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2012, 09:21:30 am »
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Text of the letter Santorum's campaign handed out to legislative district caucuses yesterday. Emphasis is mine.

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Dear Rick Santorum supporter:

Earlier this week, the Washington State Rick Santorum leadership had a conference call with a special guest, the Senator himself. And the Senator didn't mince words. In order for us to win the nomination in Tampa in August, we must deny Romney delegates to that convention. If Romney received 1144 delegates before the national convention, it is all over for our campaign. That is the reason why Senator Santorum directed us to coalition with the Ron Paul and Newt Gingrich delegates—- it helps us reach our goal of taking our message to the entire nation in August!

On primary day, each of us was elected by the voters to use our best judgment at our county convention. Now we have a choice. We can accept the Romney "Unity Slate" which is deliberately designed to guarantee that Mitt wins Washington State. Or we can be bold. We choose to be bold!
You shall know them by their fruits. If they are offering the same people spouting old ways of thinking, they are the Establishment. We've seen our principles watered down and ignored with them in charge before.

By combining the supporters of Santorum, Gingrich, and Paul along with the uncommitted delegates, we become the clear majority. Working together, we can select delegates to the state convention who are not fooled by the Media's insistence that our nominee should be obvious. It happened throughout Pierce County last weekend! Where supporters of an open convention voted together as a block, we were able to elect nearly half of the delegates for Santorum—and limited Romney to just three percent.

Please seek out the grassroots leaders who have stepped forward in your county. We have not given up winning this nomination in Tampa! We ask you to stand with us.

Together, we can win. Divided gives us the tepid status quo. Let's shake things up!

Regards-
Joel Griffith
National representative- Santorum for President
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 02:49:11 pm »
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Have Santorum and his campaign completely lost their minds?
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2012, 02:50:48 pm »
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Have Santorum and his campaign completely lost their minds?

What's insane about this? You might not like it but from the perspective of 'maximizing Rick Santorum's number of delegates' it's eminently sane.
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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2012, 03:00:15 pm »
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Santorum has revealed himself to be no better than Gingrich, an opportunist troll, and a dishonest individual unfit for the presidency, or any form of public service. A convention fight would completely destroy the GOP, which is already facing an uphill climb, and Santorum seems to not care.

It would make sense if there were major policy differences between the two men, but since they're aren't, the only explanation is that Santorum simply cares more about his own political career than his party and his country. Remember that Santorum endorsed Romney, and called him what again? A true conservative speaking clearly or whatever? Strange, Romney seems to suddenly not be conservative enough when Santorum runs for president. What a complete disgrace.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2012, 03:19:32 pm »
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Have Santorum and his campaign completely lost their minds?

Well, at least they know where not to start looking: your head.
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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2012, 09:06:52 pm »
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Santorum has revealed himself to be no better than Gingrich, an opportunist troll, and a dishonest individual unfit for the presidency, or any form of public service. A convention fight would completely destroy the GOP, which is already facing an uphill climb, and Santorum seems to not care.

The person who has immeasurable harmed the Republican chances to beat Obama is Romney. First, was the vicious, negative nature of his campaign. And, second, was the fact that he is Mitt Romney.

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It would make sense if there were major policy differences between the two men, but since they're aren't, the only explanation is that Santorum simply cares more about his own political career than his party and his country. Remember that Santorum endorsed Romney, and called him what again? A true conservative speaking clearly or whatever? Strange, Romney seems to suddenly not be conservative enough when Santorum runs for president. What a complete disgrace.

Um, Romney gave Rick Santorum's Presidential campaign the maximum amount in 2006. Romney, later, denounced Santorum as being part of the problem. If Santorum and Romney don't really have any "major policy differences," then why shouldn't we conclude that Romney will be as much a part of the problem as he accuses Santorum?

Here is a difference between the "major policies" advocated by Romney and Santorum: Santorum means its, while Romney's position are as fleetings as the diagrams on an Etch-A-Sketch.
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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2012, 10:36:32 pm »
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Have Santorum and his campaign completely lost their minds?

Well, at least they know where not to start looking: your head.

Reported as a personal attack.  At least it should be.  You are on notice. 
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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2012, 11:58:10 pm »
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Got to say that I am impressed by the Santorum organization. If what they say about Pierce county is true then they managed to decrease the Romney percentage from 38% down to 3%, pretty darn good. With the havoc that the Paulites have been causing in King county Romney could very easily walk away with almost nothing in Washington.
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2012, 12:13:02 am »
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The Romney supporters' tears are delicious.
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« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2012, 04:19:17 am »
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Punish Virginia post hoc because of a state law that was only relevant because only Romney and Paul had their asses together?

I'm not quite sure how holding a do-over Primary is punishing VA.
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« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2012, 12:28:47 pm »
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Romney ended up at 3% on the second ballot in Pierce County?  That's especially weird, since the Pierce County GOP Chair has done nearly all he can to mess with the Paulites.  He even excluded them from the county's "cheat sheet" because he considers them disloyal.

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Punish Virginia post hoc because of a state law that was only relevant because only Romney and Paul had their asses together?

I'm not quite sure how holding a do-over Primary is punishing VA.

That's not reasonable either.  It was a state-run primary...paid for by the voters.  No?  You'd have to ask the state to hold a new primary because the GOP decided, after the fact, that turnout was too low, and because people failed to file in accordance with Virginia state law.  It's not happening, and it shouldn't.
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« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2012, 12:52:37 pm »

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Punish Virginia post hoc because of a state law that was only relevant because only Romney and Paul had their asses together?

I'm not quite sure how holding a do-over Primary is punishing VA.

The Virginia GOP primary was held in accordance with Virginia law and RNC bylaws. Why should (and for that matter, how could) Virginia be forced to foot the bill for a contest when the only problem was that Santorum and Gingrich are running inept campaigns that couldn't collect enough signatures? Do you also think there should be a revote in those congressional districts in Ohio and Illinois where Santorum forgot to file delegate slates?
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« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2012, 01:37:33 pm »
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I think the wording of that Santorum letter is key:

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Where supporters of an open convention voted together as a block, we were able to elect nearly half of the delegates for Santorum—and limited Romney to just three percent.

That may only apply to certain LD's
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« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2012, 01:51:40 pm »
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The Virginia GOP primary was held in accordance with Virginia law and RNC bylaws. Why should (and for that matter, how could) Virginia be forced to foot the bill for a contest when the only problem was that Santorum and Gingrich are running inept campaigns that couldn't collect enough signatures? Do you also think there should be a revote in those congressional districts in Ohio and Illinois where Santorum forgot to file delegate slates?

Because the majority of the Virginia GOP electorate wants it? Isn't that the whole purpose of the VA GOP primary to represent the interests of the state of the VA GOP party?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 01:55:02 pm by Ben Kenobi »Logged

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« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2012, 01:58:35 pm »
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That's not reasonable either.  It was a state-run primary...paid for by the voters.  No?  You'd have to ask the state to hold a new primary because the GOP decided, after the fact, that turnout was too low, and because people failed to file in accordance with Virginia state law.  It's not happening, and it shouldn't.

If the majority of the VA GOP voters want it, then it should happen. The whole point of paying for a primary is for the VA GOP to have a say in the GOP selection for the presidency. That most of the VA GOP chose to walk away from the primary is a devastating indictment of the whole process.

Tack it onto the schedule and do it right this time.
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« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2012, 02:41:16 pm »
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That's not reasonable either.  It was a state-run primary...paid for by the voters.  No?  You'd have to ask the state to hold a new primary because the GOP decided, after the fact, that turnout was too low, and because people failed to file in accordance with Virginia state law.  It's not happening, and it shouldn't.

If the majority of the VA GOP voters want it, then it should happen. The whole point of paying for a primary is for the VA GOP to have a say in the GOP selection for the presidency. That most of the VA GOP chose to walk away from the primary is a devastating indictment of the whole process.

Tack it onto the schedule and do it right this time.

Do you understand how state-run elections work, and how expensive/complicated it is to rerun them?  You'd have to change state statute, allow for another filing period, orchestrate a completely unplanned in a large state...this is madness, man.  Do you understand the precedent problem caused by redoing an election, where all the rules were properly followed, simply because some candidates failed to meet the rules' standards?  This is basically just like calling "do-over" in elementary school sports.  Not to mention, I have no idea how you'd even determine what the majority of the VA GOP wants.
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« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2012, 02:55:07 pm »
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Not to mention, I have no idea how you'd even determine what the majority of the VA GOP wants.

"Of the following candidates, who would you support?"

Wow, amazingly difficult to discover.

Alienating a substantial proportion of the electorate that you are attempting to gain isn't exactly wise.

Pegging VA at 35 Romney and Paul at 10, leaves 55 percent of the electorate unrepresented.  I would even argue that massively unrepresentative primaries damages the GOP chances in the overall election - the same way that bad pricing information causes you to lose money.
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« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2012, 03:40:53 pm »
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Why should Democratic and Independent taxpayers have to foot the bill because REPUBLICAN candidates failed to follow rules in place since the 1950's in a REPUBLICAN primary for the REPUBLICAN Presidential nomination? It is absolutely insane. Rick and Newt had their chance and blew it. All the rules were followed and their is no grounds to have it redone other than, "We are epic fail and out of fairness you have to let us have another chance". No they don't and it ain't happening. Plus the Governor is a potential VP choice for Romney so I doubt he would consider it even if there was a valid complaint, which there isn't.

If the TP would have found some more reasonable candidates instead of the quacks and fruits that barely lasted six weeks before they were down for good or driven out, this wouldn't be an issue. The only semblance of a seriously organized tea party candidate was Rick Perry and he was done by September. Since then, their candidates have relied on debate driven medium exposure and other inexpensive out reach efforts to drive bottom up enthusiasm, but lacked the top down structure to make sure such was channelled effectively. Hence the tea party castrated themselves and played right into the establishment's hands in this election.
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« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2012, 03:47:37 pm »
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Not to mention, I have no idea how you'd even determine what the majority of the VA GOP wants.

"Of the following candidates, who would you support?"

Alienating a substantial proportion of the electorate that you are attempting to gain isn't exactly wise.

Pegging VA at 35 Romney and Paul at 10, leaves 55 percent of the electorate unrepresented.  I would even argue that massively unrepresentative primaries damages the GOP chances in the overall election - the same way that bad pricing information causes you to lose money.

1. That's not the same as asking whether Republican voters support a re-vote.

2. You blew off the rest of my post for no apparent reason, totally ignoring the fundamentals of my argument.
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« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2012, 04:06:18 pm »
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It's not really an argument. Basically - it's tough/complicated/difficult so we shouldn't do it.

Would you find that a compelling reason?

If that's your only argument, then they should void all the VA delegates. Cheap, easy to do.

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Do you understand how state-run elections work, and how expensive/complicated it is to rerun them?  You'd have to change state statute, allow for another filing period, orchestrate a completely unplanned in a large state...this is madness, man.

Then they should have invested the money wisely and done it right the first time. Yes, it's difficult and complicated, but I think it's worth doing. Certainly moreso than wasting the money that they spent on the primary that they did run, in which very few people showed up.

Surely you can see why a primary that has an excessively low turnout isn't worth holding, let alone assigning delegates?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 04:18:00 pm by Ben Kenobi »Logged

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« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2012, 04:15:53 pm »
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Why should Democratic and Independent taxpayers have to foot the bill

Why should they be footing the bill for any primaries whatsoever? Are the democrats willing to forego state funding for their primaries? Yes/no.

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REPUBLICAN candidates failed to follow rules in place since the 1950's

Uh huh. Which is why the rules were changed during the election and have since been allowed to stand? Apparently you can change the rules in midstream. Now, you're complaining about the rules changing in response? Tough. You want to change things to suit yourself, don't complain when people want to change the rules to countervail your changes.

Or the RNC could have done the right thing and put everyone on the ballot. Problem solved. 

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Rick and Newt had their chance and blew it.

And the rules were changed excluding them from the primary. Now you're upset that another primary would be held superceding this one? That's a laugh.

I think it's a great idea, and there is still time to hold one before the convention.

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No they don't and it ain't happening.

It can, and it should. The majority of the Republican electorate gets shut out of their own primary and they are supposed to just sit back and take it? Hells no. The VA GOP party is supposed to represent the entire GOP, not just Mitt Romney. And if they want to organize another primary, that would solve all the problems of the previous one.

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Plus the Governor is a potential VP choice for Romney so I doubt he would consider it even if there was a valid complaint, which there isn't.

I'm not talking about a valid complaint from the candidates POV, but from the viewpoint of the VA GOP, and their members. I think that the VA GOP should have the opportunity to cast ballots for the candidate of their choice, without restriction. If the RNC and Romney doesn't like it, then tough. The will of the VA GOP should previal, not the will of one candidate.

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Hence the tea party castrated themselves and played right into the establishment's hands in this election.

And why the establishment folks are sorely mistaken if they expect the tea party to carry water for them for Mitt. Mitt wins, we walk.
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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2012, 05:31:58 pm »
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It's not really an argument. Basically - it's tough/complicated/difficult so we shouldn't do it.

Please respond to my argument in a way that isn't a strawman.  I know I wasn't being unclear enough to explain such a completely reductionist interpretation of my argument.
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« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2012, 06:08:53 pm »
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So because it's tough and difficult means it shouldn't be done? I guess we should just concede the election to Obama too.
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