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Author Topic: PA-Muhlenberg: Obama with a moderate lead  (Read 2366 times)
IDS Ex-Speaker Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2012, 07:11:18 pm »
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Because Romney is competent.  If you want government to do more, than Romney is your guy because he is a technocratic machine of efficiency.  If you want government to cost less than Romney is your guy because he isn't a radical ideologue hell bent on spending the country into oblivion.  Understanding that COST has to be weighed against BENEFIT isn't a revolutionary concept, but only one party has shown an ability to acknowledge it... or pass a budget for that matter.

I'm talking liberal indies not conservative indies.
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2012, 07:18:37 pm »
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GOP = passed a serious budget through the house
Dem s = no budget for 3 years

Both parties have passed serious budgets. They differ on spending priorities and cuts. You're either ignorant or a lying hack. Maybe both?
Where is this budget you claimed democrats passed? Obama's has been voted on and defeated without receiving a single vote and Harry Reid has not brought a budget to the floor for 3 years despite being required by law to do so annually.  

Quote
GOP = growing economy, profitable businesses, jobs
Dem s = flat-line economy, demagog business, ZERO jobs
You know that we've had about two straight years of job creation, right? That GDP is at a record high?

Going from 8.5% unemployment to 8.3% with an increase of people NOT working isn't exactly stellar job creation.  ZERO net jobs is a marvalous acomplishment. One to Two percent GDP growth isn't 'good' either.  I'm not sure what you mean by "record." Hidden inflation may negate much of the 2% GDP growth, but there's no way to tell.

Quote
GOP = against failed 800billion stimulus package that created ZERO jobs and exploded debt  
Dem s = In favor of worst government spending package in the history of the country



There is a wide consensus among economists that the stimulus propped up GDP and kept unemployment down. The debate is over whether if it was unnecessary and how much it helped. We don't know if it starved off 11.5% UE or 20%.  
LOL, Paul Krugman is not a "consensus."  He is widely considered a joke.

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I think I could create ONE job if I pilled up 5 TRILLION of Debt

If your hackery was inversely proportional to your ability to create jobs, you'd probably destroy millions with that $5 trillion.
Ahhh yes, the personal attack because I hurt you with the truth. Ouch, you hurt my feelings as you surrendered the 'high ground.'
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:22:25 pm by AmericanNation »Logged

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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2012, 07:19:12 pm »
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GOP = passed a serious budget through the house
Dem s = no budget for 3 years


GOP = growing economy, profitable businesses, jobs
Dem s = flat-line economy, demagog business, ZERO jobs

GOP = against failed 800billion stimulus package that created ZERO jobs and exploded debt  
Dem s = In favor of worst government spending package in the history of the country

I think I could create ONE job if I pilled up 5 TRILLION of Debt

Obama's private-sector job creation record at this stage in his presidency is actually better than GWB's was. The overall job numbers are worse because so many public-sector jobs have been eliminated under Obama, whereas Bush II presided over a massive increase in the public-sector workforce.
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2012, 07:26:11 pm »
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Obama's private-sector job creation record at this stage in his presidency is actually better than GWB's was. The overall job numbers are worse because so many public-sector jobs have been eliminated under Obama, whereas Bush II presided over a massive increase in the public-sector workforce.
The Clinton recession and 9/11 was tough to turn into 4% unemployment and 4% GDP growth, but he did manage to make it happen. 
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2012, 07:36:51 pm »
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Obama's private-sector job creation record at this stage in his presidency is actually better than GWB's was. The overall job numbers are worse because so many public-sector jobs have been eliminated under Obama, whereas Bush II presided over a massive increase in the public-sector workforce.
The Clinton recession and 9/11 was tough to turn into 4% unemployment and 4% GDP growth, but he did manage to make it happen. 

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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 08:43:44 pm »
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[(Clinton era) + (dot com bust)] recession.  More believable? ? ?   
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 08:55:54 pm »
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Of course the Bush tax cuts balanced the budget after many years of huge deficits under tax and spend liberal Clinton, as we all know. And Paul Krugman is obviously not a Nobel Laureate.
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His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

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AmericanNation
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2012, 09:21:51 pm »
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Of course the Bush tax cuts balanced the budget after many years of huge deficits under tax and spend liberal Clinton, as we all know. And Paul Krugman is obviously not a Nobel Laureate.

Sigh, Clinton worked with a R congress (caved into, than took credit for) working toward a balanced budget.  At the height of the dot com bubble the government ran a surplus (1 possibly 2 years depending on if you count the social security raid) Bush inherited the mess from the bubble burst and Clinton's failed foreign policy associated problems and promptly stimulated the economy, which in turn rebounded AND they budgeted a march toward a balanced budget.  You will notice the deficit got smaller every year.  Unfortunately a Real Estate Time bomb caused by old federal laws and regulations exploded at the end of his term.  

It is interesting that Bush probably would have left a surplus nearly identical to the Clinton-GOP 90's had the financial system not been poisoned for over 30 years.      

Paul Krugman obviously IS a Nobel Laureate.  He is also widely regarded as a joke.   
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 09:24:23 pm by AmericanNation »Logged

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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2012, 09:29:32 pm »
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Nobel Laureate.

...

widely regarded as a joke.   

Uh...
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2012, 10:04:50 pm »
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Nobel Laureate.

...

widely regarded as a joke.   

Uh...

Niall Ferguson, historian and Harvard Business School professor, explained why he doesn't agree with New York Times Columnist Paul Krugman and mentions his declining reputation among serious people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHPwYgkjU8k&feature=related

If that's to complicated for you, this is much simpler
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OXBwrOofPM
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2012, 11:28:01 pm »
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Niall Ferguson...


widely regarded as a joke...


Niall Ferguson...





Hmmmmmmm.
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His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

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AmericanNation
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2012, 09:55:29 am »
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Niall Ferguson...

widely regarded as a joke...


Niall Ferguson...

Hmmmmmmm.

I don't really need to defend Ferguson (his seats at Oxford, Harvard, and Stanford speak pretty well for him.)  He is at least a serious person.  Krugman has become a prop of a failed administration.   
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2012, 10:05:38 am »
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Niall Ferguson...

widely regarded as a joke...


Niall Ferguson...

Hmmmmmmm.

I don't really need to defend Ferguson (his seats at Oxford, Harvard, and Stanford speak pretty well for him.)  He is at least a serious person.  Krugman has become a prop of a failed administration.   

Lay off the Kool-Aid and stop slandering someone who clearly knows what he's talking about.

ALSO (just as a side note) Princeton Econ department >>>> Harvard Econ department
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2012, 10:18:02 am »
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Niall Ferguson...

widely regarded as a joke...


Niall Ferguson...

Hmmmmmmm.

I don't really need to defend Ferguson (his seats at Oxford, Harvard, and Stanford speak pretty well for him.)  He is at least a serious person.  Krugman has become a prop of a failed administration.   

Lay off the Kool-Aid and stop slandering someone who clearly knows what he's talking about.

ALSO (just as a side note) Princeton Econ department >>>> Harvard Econ department

Pual Krugman obviously has become a political prop and his reputation has suffered as a result.  Not sure how you get "Slander" out of public knowledge. 

ALSO (just as a side note) Your note is irrelevant because Niall teaches in the History department and at the business school at Harvard... you know the top school in the country (tied with Wharton).  You also left out the cow schools Oxford and Stanford.   
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2012, 12:34:10 pm »
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Niall Ferguson...

widely regarded as a joke...


Niall Ferguson...

Hmmmmmmm.

I don't really need to defend Ferguson (his seats at Oxford, Harvard, and Stanford speak pretty well for him.)  He is at least a serious person.  Krugman has become a prop of a failed administration.   

Lay off the Kool-Aid and stop slandering someone who clearly knows what he's talking about.

ALSO (just as a side note) Princeton Econ department >>>> Harvard Econ department

Pual Krugman obviously has become a political prop and his reputation has suffered as a result.  Not sure how you get "Slander" out of public knowledge. 

ALSO (just as a side note) Your note is irrelevant because Niall teaches in the History department and at the business school at Harvard... you know the top school in the country (tied with Wharton).  You also left out the cow schools Oxford and Stanford.   

I mean if you get "public knowledge" from Faux News then...LOL...

BTW the merging of public policy AND economics (which is what we are discussing) is probably best by Krugman and Krueger who work in places like WWS...
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2012, 12:46:24 pm »
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Because Romney is competent.  If you want government to do more, than Romney is your guy because he is a technocratic machine of efficiency.  If you want government to cost less than Romney is your guy because he isn't a radical ideologue hell bent on spending the country into oblivion.  Understanding that COST has to be weighed against BENEFIT isn't a revolutionary concept, but only one party has shown an ability to acknowledge it... or pass a budget for that matter.

Spending isn't the problem, its unfunded spending. Deficit = the shortfall between spending as a % of GDP & revenues as a % of GDP. And, ultimately, only a balanced approach involving spending cuts and tax increases, especially on the primary beneficiaries of the supply-side tax cuts which added trillions to the gross federal debt (and that ain't the middle class, given that median US incomes declined under the stewardship of GWB), would be the responsible path to take. Bill Clinton - by far the most economically successful post-1981 - proved that much and, at least, George W Bush rode into the Oval Office, he was able to prevent the GOP in Congress from cutting taxes too recklessly

Ever occurred to you Republicans that had it not been for US median incomes declining Sad during the 'Noughties', there may not have been a sub-prime crisis, which as events unfolded proved nothing short of near catastrophic for both the US and wider global economy?

Prosperity needs to be broad-based, which is why capitalism needs to be fundamentally different coming out of the 'Great Recession' then it was going in

I'm not adverse to some tax cuts as a counter-cyclical measure but with that must come an understanding that a day will come when they have to be raised. My point being if the answer was to cut, cut, cut and cut taxes each and every time a downturn came along, where would it end .... ? Sad

Indeed, "The Republican Party has totally abdicated its job in our democracy, which is to act as the guardian of fiscal discipline and responsibility. They're on an anti-tax jihad -- one that benefits the prosperous classes" - David Stockman [Director of the Office of Management and Budget, (1981Ė1985)]

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-gop-became-the-party-of-the-rich-20111109

For all the Bush 43 tax cuts ($3 trillion added to the gross federal debt), the US economy yielded the fewest number of jobs of any presidential term this side of Herbert Hoover; while a modest, by comparison, $800 bn ARRA has countered the effects of a much more severe downturn; indeed, some economists consider that the ARRA was too conservative a response but mindful of deficits, I suspect, is why Obama opted for it

TARP, meanwhile, was George W's one saving grace. I'll give him that. Because its clear to me were it not for the actions of government, central bankers and policy makers in the wake of the 'Crash of 2008', a reprisal of the Great Depression would have been inevitable Sad
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2012, 12:49:28 pm »
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Because Romney is competent.  If you want government to do more, than Romney is your guy because he is a technocratic machine of efficiency.  If you want government to cost less than Romney is your guy because he isn't a radical ideologue hell bent on spending the country into oblivion.  Understanding that COST has to be weighed against BENEFIT isn't a revolutionary concept, but only one party has shown an ability to acknowledge it... or pass a budget for that matter.

Spending isn't the problem, its unfunded spending. Deficit = the shortfall between spending as a % of GDP & revenues as a % of GDP. And, ultimately, only a balanced approach involving spending cuts and tax increases, especially on the primary beneficiaries of the supply-side tax cuts which added trillions to the gross federal debt (and that ain't the middle class, given that median US incomes declined under the stewardship of GWB), would be the responsible path to take. Bill Clinton - by far the most economically successful post-1981 - proved that much and, at least, George W Bush rode into the Oval Office, he was able to prevent the GOP in Congress from cutting taxes too recklessly

Thant sounds good and I agree, until you start looking at specific taxes to raise.  Most proposed increases would decrease revenue after a few years and eliminate jobs, so WE should probably focus on raising revenue not raising taxes.  This 'Buffet' tax for example would jack capitol gains on high earners to 30%.  That would be near the highest rate in the world, next to our highest corporate tax in the world.  Is the few billion of revenue that tax will bring in going to be increasingly offset by 'lost' revenue as a result of it?? Yes, so it's hard to support.

Ever occurred to you Republicans that had it not been for US median incomes declining Sad during the 'Noughties', there may not have been a sub-prime crisis, which as events unfolded proved nothing short of near catastrophic for both the US and wider global economy?

I think about that.  The Federal government forcing banks to loan to people they shouldn't and (in the past) wouldn't lend to probably was a bigger factor.

Prosperity needs to be broad-based, which is why capitalism needs to be fundamentally different coming out of the 'Great Recession' then it was going in

Probably need to be more capitalistic going forward, agreed.

I'm not adverse to some tax cuts as a counter-cyclical measure but with that must come an understanding that a day will come when they have to be raised. My point being if the answer was to cut, cut, cut and cut taxes each and every time a downturn came along, where would it end .... ? Sad

I used to think that exact line, until I realized that a tax cut has little effect unless there is CONFIDENCE the rate will be 'low' long term.  So, a rock solid 20% to 25% income tax is the best option at all times.  Counter-cyclical measures should be FED money supply, federal spending etc.  You can ratchet those back in 'boom' times.  ...So, spending combined with tax reform is the problem.

And no I don't think adding $3 trillion to the gross federal debt to counter a recession, during 2001, in which the economy contracted by only 0.3%, and which, ultimately, yielded the fewest number of jobs of any presidential term this side of Herbert Hoover, sound economic stewardship given that a modest, by comparison, $800 bn ARRA has countered the effects of a much more severe downturn

I don't want to spend time comparing Bush and Obama, but lets just say Bush did a number of things well and Obama hasn't exactly done as many.

TARP, meanwhile, was George W's one saving grace. I'll give him that. Because its clear to me were it not for the actions of government, central bankers and policy makers in the wake of the 'Crash of 2008', a reprisal of the Great Depression would have been inevitable Sad
Yea, it is fair to say Bush, Paulson, and Bernanke had learned some lessons from 1929 and made a lot of good decisions.  Why when Obama was working on TARP2 did he change it from an awesome model to a crap-tacular bailout package?  I've never heard a good reason about that.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:54:16 pm by AmericanNation »Logged

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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2012, 08:27:48 am »
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Probably need to be more capitalistic going forward, agreed.

I said prosperity needs to be more Smiley broad-based not less Sad. The 'Crash of 2008' has, totally and utterly, discredited the neoliberal mantra espoused by Friedrich von Hayek
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« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2012, 09:33:18 am »
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Probably need to be more capitalistic going forward, agreed.

I said prosperity needs to be more Smiley broad-based not less Sad. The 'Crash of 2008' has, totally and utterly, discredited the neoliberal mantra espoused by Friedrich von Hayek

How? The experience of this problem, which was started by government FORCING banks to lend to people they HAD always judged (correctly) to not be creditworthy bolsters my argument (or one Hayek would make), not undermines it.  A big government+crony-ist time bomb goes off and you side with them? why? 
Also,
Is Obama pro big government?... yes
Is Obama a crony-ist?... yes
Don't support the problem you claim to care about solving. 
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« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2012, 09:40:41 am »
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Probably need to be more capitalistic going forward, agreed.

I said prosperity needs to be more Smiley broad-based not less Sad. The 'Crash of 2008' has, totally and utterly, discredited the neoliberal mantra espoused by Friedrich von Hayek

How? The experience of this problem, which was started by government FORCING banks to lend to people they HAD always judged (correctly) to not be creditworthy bolsters my argument (or one Hayek would make), not undermines it.  A big government+crony-ist time bomb goes off and you side with them? why? 

You're complaining about a stopped-up toilet on the Titanic, Mister.
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« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2012, 05:52:48 pm »
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Probably need to be more capitalistic going forward, agreed.

I said prosperity needs to be more Smiley broad-based not less Sad. The 'Crash of 2008' has, totally and utterly, discredited the neoliberal mantra espoused by Friedrich von Hayek

How? The experience of this problem, which was started by government FORCING banks to lend to people they HAD always judged (correctly) to not be creditworthy bolsters my argument (or one Hayek would make), not undermines it.  A big government+crony-ist time bomb goes off and you side with them? why?
Also,
Is Obama pro big government?... yes
Is Obama a crony-ist?... yes
Don't support the problem you claim to care about solving. 

The 'Crash of 2008' has for me, at least, laid bare the dangers of wealth becoming increasingly concentrated at the very top

I'm not adverse to a liberal economy providing it comes with 1) extensive positive rights and 2) a strong welfare safety net. As a left-leaning Christian Democrat, I've always been of those convictions - and, among developed nations, the US and UK are among the most unequal in terms of wealth distribution. That is why prosperity needs to be more broad-based

Classical liberalism is no more relevant in the 21st century than Jeffersonian small-producer populism
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« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2012, 06:11:05 pm »
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The connection between "distribution of wealth" and the crash of 2008 and/or macroeconomic conditions is entirely subjective based upon one's own biases and beliefs. I do agree that it might be indicative of something else that could be a drag on the economy, like problems in the education system. The best ideas for solving those problems are a combination of ideas offered from both sides. I would say there is a higher concentration of good ideas on the Republican side then the Democrats, though. Tongue But that too is a subjective opinion. Wink

I guess I am just not one to buy into the "emense impact" of a slightly more progressive tax code under Clinton being the cause of the 1990's expansion versus the 2000's stagnation. Many other factors were at play to create the 1990's, most of which were far beyond the goverment's control.

What do you mean by "positive rights"?
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« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2012, 09:06:02 pm »
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Bush was ahead of were Obama is in most key indicators and everyone keeps acting like Obama is like Clinton (triangulating, moderating, centrist-ish)... he isn't.   
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« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2012, 08:42:00 am »
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Bush was ahead of were Obama is in most key indicators and everyone keeps acting like Obama is like Clinton (triangulating, moderating, centrist-ish)... he isn't.  

If we have populist protectionists, on the left, neoliberals, on the right and welfare-state liberals in the center, the president's record, if anything, is moderately center-right

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act was not radical (certainly not at a cost of $800bn); the Consumer Protection and Wall Street Reform Act is not radical. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (which - shock horror - raises revenues to pay for it) is not radical

If there's any radicalism around, right now, its on the right (i.e. the Tea Party, which seems oblvious to the fact that its the 21st century, not the 18th); the US doesn't have a meaningful "left", so any socialism (left) - conservatism (right) dichotomy is a false one
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« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2012, 09:35:15 am »
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The connection between "distribution of wealth" and the crash of 2008 and/or macroeconomic conditions is entirely subjective based upon one's own biases and beliefs. I do agree that it might be indicative of something else that could be a drag on the economy, like problems in the education system. The best ideas for solving those problems are a combination of ideas offered from both sides. I would say there is a higher concentration of good ideas on the Republican side then the Democrats, though. Tongue But that too is a subjective opinion. Wink

I'd be minded to agree if the the eve of the 'Crash of 2008', which begat the Great Recession, did not correlate with that of the 'Crash of 1929', which begat the Great Depression, in that respect

Quote
I guess I am just not one to buy into the "emense impact" of a slightly more progressive tax code under Clinton being the cause of the 1990's expansion versus the 2000's stagnation. Many other factors were at play to create the 1990's, most of which were far beyond the goverment's control.

I don't dispute there are factors far beyond the government's control but the 1990s was one of prosperity, relative to the 'Eighties' (the only great achievement being slaying the inflation dragon but that came at significant social cost) and 'Noughties'

Quote
What do you mean by "positive rights"?

Rights considered positive rights, as initially proposed in 1979 by the Czech jurist Karel Vasak, may include other civil and political rights such as police protection of person and property and the right to counsel, as well as economic, social and cultural rights such as food, housing, public education, employment, national security, military, health care, social security, and a minimum standard of living

Of course, liberals [be they classical (Smith), new liberal (Keynes) or neoliberal (Hayek)] will disagree on the extent to which the state and market should play in securing those

Apparently, according to Pew's typology, I'm a 'New Coalition Democrat' and we tend to favor proative government, be pro-business and be pro-labor. But then as a left-leaning Christian Democrat, I've never believed that the interests of capital and labor are necessarily irreconciliable. Such a position could be considered neo-corporatist. And in the wake of the 'Crash of 2008', I've become somewhat enamored with the German social market model (its their variant of the 'Third Way'); indeed, Northern Europe, in general, seems to be , fiscally, well-managed. Southern Europe, on the other hand, ... well

I'm wary of austerity, certainly in the UK, given unemployment is running at 8.4%, though had we a more 'social democratic' (Nordic) or 'Christian Democratic/conservative' (social market) welfare safety net it wouldn't concern me as much. Its pretty impressive that Austria has reduced its budget deficit to 2.6% of GDP, with 4.2% unemployment (the lowest in the EU)

If I was ever to do research it would be on the welfare state

I can honestly say that never in my life have I cast a vote on the promise of tax cuts and the Conservative Party has been dead to me since the reintroduction of mass unemployment in early 1980s
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