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realisticidealist
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« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2012, 08:35:57 pm »
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There's really no point in picking on DWTL now, especially for things he said five years ago, but I did find the "we would let people know if you join another religion you go to hell" bit quite amusing since that's not even Catholic teaching (even if the statement is taken literally and not defining "another religion" as "another Christian denomination" which is what I think he meant.)

Yeah, Catholics have a pretty open door policy on heaven. You have to really go out of your way to become "hellbound" unlike some (though certainly not all) Protestant churches.
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« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2012, 08:19:25 am »
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Yes, Obama's attacks on Romney's record at Bain are unfair. No, the fact that a company Bain Capital invested in outsourced jobs isn't especially important.

But none of this would hold water as much if Mitt Romney weren't basing his entire campaign for president on the idea that he "knows how to create jobs" - something which sounds even weirder when GOP doctrine suggests government can't create jobs.

It's worth remembering that the bulk of Mitt Romney's career was spent not as a private equity partner, but as a management consultant. It's being overly generous to place management consulting in the rough-and-tumble part of the business world. Management consultants are people who are paid a fee to give advice to companies; in that sense, it's really more like being a doctor or a lawyer than being an entrepreneur or a manager.

Romney's private equity record likewise says nothing about his ability to create jobs. It says much about his ability to generate profits. But anyone with a decent understanding of management knows that one of the quickest ways to increase a firm's profits is to eliminate jobs. No one starts a business to create jobs; they start a business to generate a return on their investment. Any jobs created are incidental. There shouldn't be anything wrong with this; I don't think "You make too much money" is a very salient insult. Liberals don't understand that. But conservatives need to dispense with the starry-eyed vision of people who sit in offices and say "Let's see how many jobs I can create today."

Mitt Romney was a good management consultant and a good private equity investor. But he hasn't done a good job of explaining how any of that entails he will be a good president. If anything, his management consulting experience would seem like a more logical jumping off point - many of the organizational problems companies experience have analogues in government agencies. Someone who knows how to make a major corporation run more efficiently could probably do the same for a Cabinet-level agency. But there will probably be layoffs involved.
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« Reply #127 on: July 20, 2012, 09:06:08 pm »
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cc: Sulfur Mine

Stay classy gun control nuts.

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof. When a maniac massacred sixteen people in Dunblane in 1996, there was a near-unanimous consensus that the UK needed to tighten its gun control - and they did, with universal public support.

Only in America is the reaction to things like this a horrified panic at the very idea that there might have to be the slightest scrap of extra regulation on guns, because, lest we forget, it's a God-given right to allow lunatics to own the kind of tools that let them murder people with wild abandon.

I can't believe you have the gall to accuse people of "politicizing" this - as if this doesn't inherently have political ramifications and, more to the point, as if your very post wasn't a sleazy and political attack on those of us who think the sheer amount of violent firearms massacres in the United States might - just might - warrant a re-examination of the law.

The same goes for Sanchez and Sanders - spare us the phony outrage. Please. The idea that this incident can be shrugged off as "huh, it was just some nut, what you gonna do?" as if it's merely a sad but predictable and even acceptable event in a healthy society. This isn't normal.
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« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2012, 01:31:17 pm »
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I believe people need to take responsibility for themselves. But I also believe some people are more susceptible to becoming overweight than others.

It always irritates me when thin people, who've never been overweight in their lives, suggest people who are overweight are irresponsible or disgusting because of what they've done to themselves. It may be their own fault that they're like that, but these thin people have no idea what it's like. They have no idea how challenging it is or what it's like to feel so dejected.

I think one of the things that actually bothers me the most in his world is when "fit people" tell "fat" people to "get themselves in shape" like it's just some switch they can flick on. As if to say "it's easy for me, so it should be easy for you, you gross pig."
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« Reply #129 on: July 21, 2012, 06:06:10 pm »
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On myself.

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« Reply #130 on: July 27, 2012, 07:08:38 pm »
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We are talking about money multipliers, yes?  Then of course they should, basic economics

Keep in mind your 'basic economics' is a sham and a fraud.

Not really; in fact I would argue your economic philosophy is, though I would argue that in the nicest possible way.

I am happy with this fraud, but it should be entirely State-controlled.

History has taught us that state-controlled economies have always performed poorly compared to even sort-of free markets.
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« Reply #131 on: July 27, 2012, 10:14:49 pm »
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Smiley
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« Reply #132 on: July 28, 2012, 12:33:36 am »
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I want to say that I'm happy how well this thread has going.  I especially enjoy the less political posts here.  I wish it was more-used for those long-ass, cool informational posts that tend to get buried in threads Tongue
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« Reply #133 on: July 28, 2012, 02:29:52 pm »
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Otherwise he was a retarded but otherwise unremarkable conservatroll quite similar to all other similar morons of the type we've had.

I wonder if I'm one of the 'conservatrolls' you speak of?

I'm not Hash - although that kind of post is one of the reasons I love Hash! - but I wouldn't classify you as a troll, but I do see your avatar, think muon's posted, and get disappointed. That's not really a judgement of you so much as an acknowledgement that muon's a terrific contributor.

This thread's a good a place as any to give my unsolicited opinion - I think you're pretty clearly sincere in your beliefs, but your youth - you're 13/14, right? - becomes fairly apparent sometimes, especially when you try and argue with someone like Al about the NHS. The beliefs you're sincere about are also utterly ridiculous and reprehensible, but, again, you're 14 (?). I hope this doesn't sound condescending, although it clearly is, but you'll grow out of them. Grown adults - at least those who have the self-awareness and intelligence to post on a forum discussing their beliefs - don't go around thinking that corporations being able to spend billions upon billions to control the political process is the definition of freedom () or that a society where poor people can't afford to get healthcare and thus have shorter and worse lives is perfectly okay.

Those aren't reasonable positions to hold, and you can't argue for them - especially the latter, which is frankly disgusting, since you're literally saying that you'd prefer rich people to live more than the poor  - without starting from such bizarre moral assumptions that debating anyone at all would be futile.
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« Reply #134 on: July 28, 2012, 02:32:44 pm »
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Oakvale is way too good of a poster.
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« Reply #135 on: July 28, 2012, 05:49:45 pm »
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Chick-fil-A is a grease soaked sodium fest that is contributing to our health care crisis.  How amazing that reactionaries ignore a problem that is killing the majority of Americans (being overweight or obese) but have the time to hate on a tiny minority of the population.  If the CEO of Chick-fil-A wasn't a death merchant his comments would only be moderately disgusting.  Considering the methods he uses to line his pockets, him and the rest of the delusional right need to shut the f--- up.
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« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2012, 06:49:05 pm »
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This is an outstanding post:

Oh and let me bold that for effect:

WhyteRain is an idiot.

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« Reply #137 on: July 30, 2012, 02:55:08 pm »
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OMG!! Keystone Phil looks really hot - like all Italian folks. I wish he was gay.
But Reaganfan, Swedish cheese, Bacon King, Senator Scott and especially Joe Republic are a bit of all right. I wouldn't mind meeting them.
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« Reply #138 on: August 02, 2012, 10:12:09 am »
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My apologies for the late response - I didn't initially see the post where you posed the question.

It is possible that we have reached the "most perfect" arrangement possible, yes, but it is closely-held conviction of mine that the world is in a state of constant change and, likewise, cultures and civilizations are never holding still, either. I believe the state and its policies must adapt to these changes to continue being optimally useful to the public, and it is because of these stances that I look down somewhat on the Left in Western civilization. Many of its goals, principles, and methods almost fully mirror those of people who lived and dreamed over seventy years ago.

Plans need to be reevaluated for effectiveness and recalibrated to suit the environs we all are thrust into together as a people. There is no hope of eternally preserving old ways, or even tweaking the current order in perpetuity so as to cope with other transformations in society. Just as it is a challenge today to get Americans to realize our constitution should be changing with the times rather than preserved and worshiped like some kind of a holy relic, in some other places it is just as much of a challenge to get socialists to realize that nationalization, unionism, neo-corporatism, and top-down expansion of the public sector - given past experiences - may not be the best of ways to go.

Then again, this is all relative to ones tastes in values, goals, and in traits of culture. For me, the overarching goal in politics to is to establish and then defend an order in which people are equally granted unconditional love, compassion, and privileges that will help them determine through their own efforts - to the greatest extent feasibly possible - how their lives will unfold, preferably to the ends of maximizing the number of folk who are generally satisfied with life while minimizing the number who generally feel miserable.

So when I look at the Nordic model, for instance, I wonder how we may enjoy generous economic benefits without those benefits being widely abused at the taxpayers’ expense, or figure out how we can have the labor-business teamwork fostered by neo-corporatism while still managing to institutionalize our vibrant individualism and competitive spirit of ingenuity in the realm of business. Can we have cradle-to-grave welfare sans a sprawling maze of costly, government bureaucracy? Can we discover a set of roles for the state that make the people feel free in their daily lives but still empower government to the ends of helping us as needed (but still simply getting out of our way when it isn’t) along the way?

I think so.

In broader terms, the Left is by its very nature concerned with finding problems with the existing order and wanting to tinker with ideas to make things run a bit better. It is about innovation, taking risks, and learning from mistakes to adjust ones plans and do better in the future. So although in theory there comes a point at which the government has done all that it can, leaving the rest is all up to private interests, in practice what I see is a game of sorts with no established time for an end. There are always more moves to make, more strategies to experiment with, and experiences to gain. An immense, unexplored frontier of “what if” lies in wait out there. Rather than sticking with what feels safe and familiar, folks on the Left (e.g. me) like to rush out there with confidence and a sense of wonder to explore.

The changes sought are not necessary, per se. They are simply desired out of hunger for further development - for cultural evolution toward happier, more fulfilling ways of life. Even if we someday shape public policy to as near a state of perfection as is possible in the context of our people’s values and interests, it would be a real shame if they were to give up on the pursuit of new discoveries. Hypothetically, even if all of my positions in politics were to eventually become codified into law, I would still be disappointed if no adversarial political factions soon emerged to challenge that order, put it to the test, and propose meaningful alternatives. What peeves me in politics more than anything else is when people settle for an old set of ideas and lack courage, vision, and force of will enough to try to make them even better.

So I do not much like it when some bloke opts to laud a past or present system or public figure as having all the answers we as a people will ever need, whether they be on the right, left, or otherwise. I feel our representative democracy should be a process of peaceful, orderly evolution without an end. The Right is at an advantage, all the while, which is fortunate. I shudder at the thought of how disastrous it would be for society to try out every new idea.

. . .

tl;dr version: I don't know that a next step is out there but have enduring hope for a better future


Does that answer your question, or did I end up straying a bit far off topic? xD

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« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2012, 02:01:40 am »
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I refuse to see human life sacrificed on an altar to appease the pantheon of the knife gods that rule China.

and before the you-know-whos get in here, screw you, I'll politicize something that is inherently tied to politics. Why shouldn't 8 people dying needlessly lead to change? Because too many Chinese have a knife fetish to actually pass laws that might prevent these frickin massacres every few months!?
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« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2012, 10:51:52 am »
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I refuse to see human life sacrificed on an altar to appease the pantheon of the knife gods that rule China.

and before the you-know-whos get in here, screw you, I'll politicize something that is inherently tied to politics. Why shouldn't 8 people dying needlessly lead to change? Because too many Chinese have a knife fetish to actually pass laws that might prevent these frickin massacres every few months!?

I get that you agree with the sentiment, but I don't understand how that qualifies as a "good post" per se.
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Jbrase
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« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2012, 06:20:15 pm »
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I refuse to see human life sacrificed on an altar to appease the pantheon of the knife gods that rule China.

and before the you-know-whos get in here, screw you, I'll politicize something that is inherently tied to politics. Why shouldn't 8 people dying needlessly lead to change? Because too many Chinese have a knife fetish to actually pass laws that might prevent these frickin massacres every few months!?

I get that you agree with the sentiment, but I don't understand how that qualifies as a "good post" per se.

I find many things in life are only good or bad depending on the point of view of the individual observing/experiencing/acting out it. To myself, and I am sure other, that is a fantastic post, to others maybe not so much. Think like this is a good food thread, I could post something that includes mountains of sauerkraut on top of good fresh made bratwurst while that may not be everyone elses cup of tea.

Smiley
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« Reply #142 on: August 03, 2012, 09:28:30 pm »
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Bushie, I'm 130 pages into the Second update, and I can draw no conclusion except you are truly a cursed, miserable, terrible specimen of a human being. I cannot believe I was able to go and attempt to give you advice when you have so thoroughly ignored every piece of advice offered to you in this forum. Nor can I believe that we continued to give it.

I don't know what to say. You should be ashamed of yourself, scamming and exploiting and lying about your job situation, then claiming that you've received guidance from God! God is not talking to you... our God is a good God and He would not be leading you down your destructive path, so maybe it's Satan. But I doubt anyone is talking to you, at least not talking sense. No, you have your enablers, your parents and that pastor, who are useless enough to lead you to where you are today. I come from an African background, as you know, and we deeply follow and abide by our parents. But you depend on them as if you are five.

You go from a good paying job to a scam in which you rip off your own parents. You are terrible. No self-respecting man would do such a thing. A MUGU, and one who can be fooled by dishonest ones easily. You were a reverend, a Christian. You blaspheme God by involving Him in your tomfoolery... perhaps that's why you are so wretched.

You claim to take things slow and are engaged in a matter of months to a woman with the maturity of a ten year old. My God, do you not see the rest of us? 2-5+ years before engagement, like normal, coastal Americans! Then you try to get back together with her after she breaks up with you through your parents. I've never even heard of that happening. Ever! I mean, what's wrong with you!?

Then you sign up for a job with a company you worked for and quit before because you didn't like it after a day, I MEAN WHAT IS THAT? HOW CAN YOU BE SO IGNORANT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING??!!! You go and tell us you're doing one thing and do another, saying you didn't want to believe you were doing sales?Huh No one's making you do that! You're not a slave! Slavery would be better for you, you would be doing honest work and be made to stick with it! Instead you quit jobs after months, weeks, days, hours! How many jobs have you had since you started the update?

Perhaps you're not real. I desperately want to believe such. Perhaps you're a collaborative effort between authoritarian leftists to erode our faith in humanity... as that's what your update is doing! Chris Christie a few weeks ago said that "Washington thinks it can manage your lives better than you can", and looking at you the answer is "damn right it can!" I know intelligent, sensible, attractive, and personable Oklahomans. What went wrong with you??

I'm watching the weather Channel right now. There's a fire in Oklahoma. I hope it burns your house, maybe that'll drive you to sensible behavior.

Mods, why haven't you banned this idiot yet? He's trolling, soliciting advice and not taking it, indeed doing the exact opposite of what we say. You set your ultimatum, Mikado, but he's failed about 20 such of his own similar goals. Get rid of him. Now!
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« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2012, 09:43:12 pm »
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except for the last paragraph, I hope RomneyUtah is never banned and continues to update long after we're all dead
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« Reply #144 on: August 03, 2012, 10:59:33 pm »
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Simfan, I hope that you understand that most American adults have more in common with <Republican candidate><state name> than with you, and that this has significant public policy implications.
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« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2012, 09:23:31 am »
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I finally got around to reading Simfan's post in the Update in its entirety and all I can say is...wow. It deserves enshrinement in a hall of fame of great posts. More than the Good Post Gallery or the Sulfur Mine...we need a hall of fame of the greatest posts of all time. I actually felt the scathing rage behind that post and it hurt. Excellent job, Simfan. Godspeed.
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« Reply #146 on: August 04, 2012, 08:30:06 pm »
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Hearing people talk today in the south, you'd think we're all a rainbow coalition of peace, brotherhood and fuzziness! Everybody in the south claims to be colorblind nowadays. Jim Crow? Segregation?? That was years ago!! We're so past that, I'm not racist at all- why just yesterday me and my black friend at work went out to lunch! Would I do that if I was racist??

I think a lot of people are stuck in the mindset that racism only comes in the form of white hoods and lynchings. So if you live and work with people of other races and subscribe to general platitudes about racial equality, like "we're all god's children", then apparently you're in the clear.

I think that's setting the bar way too low. Because, from my experience, these same people will also say terrible things about other races and make really unfair generalizations. A common topic that comes up among whites down here is welfare. Apparently, every person on welfare is black and they're refusing to work or keep their legs closed in order to keep those checks coming in. Every problem in America seems to come back to this. And it's never, "some people" or "some black people on welfare" it's always, "the blacks on welfare." But then they'll compliment their black friend at work who (miraculously) broke the cycle in order to save face.

So, in the end, they seem to use their apparent colorblindness as a crutch to defend their racist attitudes. Things are better now, segregation is over, and any problem in the black community is not a residual effect of the racial hierarchies that have been in effect for centuries, but is instead a moral failing or weakness that black people are solely responsible for.

And for the record, I'm not entirely blameless either. It would be wrong to make this indictment yet exclude myself from blame, since this is exactly what many of the people I'm talking about do to escape criticism or self evaluation. Also, it's weirdly comforting to know that other areas of the country are dealing with this same attitude. The south always has to carry this burden of racism when it really exists everywhere.
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« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2012, 02:56:03 am »
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Nathan is the Forum King of troll-killing.

Since the government is going to have to accept that there is a limit to revenue, it might as well be today's level of revenue.

Why?

Why not?

The basic choice is between biting the bullet and doing it now, and, putting it off to a latter date.

Sure, it is theoretically possible to either raise, or cut taxes, from their current level and freeze them forever at that level, but, that's not how humans operate. In practise, the decision to raise taxes will only result in a debate later in which the tax-raisers will claim the underlying facts are the same as they were in 2012.

I really don't think the argument will use 2012 as its touchstone.

The fact that you think taxes can or should be frozen forever at any given level says an awful lot about you, Bob.

The fact that you are incredulous about the notion of the electorate saying, "Enough, we are choosing not to pay higher taxes!," just means you are one of the people whom has to be politically defeated, else taxes will rise to the point that people can't pay them any more.

One of those two limits is going to be reached. It might as well be the electorate choosing not to pay higher taxes.

With respect, I don't think you understand which part of your argument it is that I'm incredulous about.

Again, my point seems to have completely eluded you. I'm fairly confident that if the electorate took the decision to prefer choosing not to pay any higher taxes rather than waiting until they are unable to pay any higher taxes many in the political class would take the attitude that this is just a phase that the electorate is going through and that they need merely wait them out before raising taxes yet again. The electorate has to take this into account.

Either taxes really reach a political limit, or it is subject to renegotiation.  If the electorate continues to renegotiate with the political class, taxes will inevitably rise to the point that the citizenry simply cannot pay more. Again, I am arguing that the electorate choosing a limit for the political class is the rational political choice. If the electorate doesn't stick that political limit then it simply isn't a limit.

Oh, I see what's going on here. You're positing a form of class struggle ('electorate' vs. 'political class' over taxes, which the former always wants as low[/flat?] as possible and the latter always wants as high[/progressive?] as possible) which doesn't actually bear much resemblance to reality at all, although to be absolutely fair it's somewhat more sensible than some other dialectics I've seen people come up with. You don't appear to view the dynamic as one in which taxes are raised and lowered according to real or perceived macroeconomic utility and such policies are argued to the public based upon either their merits or common rhetoric (you likewise don't seem to view taxation as a macroeconomic policy choice of any kind so much as some complicated form of embezzlement, which may explain your apparent inability to understand the import of the fact that income tax rates have been relatively low for several decades now).

Okay, I got your point and understand exactly what was so baffling to me about it. Thank you.
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« Reply #148 on: August 05, 2012, 03:29:39 am »
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Beet's posts in this thread are f'ing fantastic: http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=156803.msg3373766#new
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« Reply #149 on: August 05, 2012, 04:41:22 am »
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Beet's posts in this thread are f'ing fantastic: http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=156803.msg3373766#new

Beet is really shining strong in that thread. Of course, it goes right over Politico's head.
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