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| | |-+  Did George Zimmerman vote for Obama?
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Question: Did George Zimmerman vote for Obama?
Yes   -24 (61.5%)
No   -8 (20.5%)
No, he did not vote   -7 (17.9%)
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Total Voters: 39

Author Topic: Did George Zimmerman vote for Obama?  (Read 3642 times)
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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2012, 02:09:57 pm »
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Even if I accepted JJ's point (which I don't), I'm failing to make the logical leap from it being reasonable to call the police to it being reasonable to stalk and murder an unarmed teenager. Huh

It wasn't reasonable to stalk, but it may (I'm not saying it was - it probably wasn't) have been reasonable to shoot him.
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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2012, 04:01:51 pm »
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Even if I accepted JJ's point (which I don't), I'm failing to make the logical leap from it being reasonable to call the police to it being reasonable to stalk and murder an unarmed teenager. Huh
If there was an iota of evidence that he had been stalking (particularly a minor) it would be 1st degree murder.

Zimmerman did call police.  He was talking to the dispatcher, explaining how the police could get to where he was at.  He reported that Martin had started to run, and jumped out of his truck to watch.   The dispatcher asked him which direction, he said toward the other gate, and while he was explaining to the dispatcher which gate began to follow after him.   In the first 5 seconds he could not have known for sure that was where Martin was headed.  It may simply have been instinct in response to the dispatcher's question.

Zimmerman was in the same area he was at when he lost sight of Martin 3 minutes earlier, and where the dispatcher had told him it would be no problem to have the police officer meet him.  If Martin had actually run for the back gate 3-1/2 minutes earlier, he would not have been at that location.

If someone has a gun within his reach, he is not necessarily unarmed, regardless of his age.
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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2012, 04:04:17 pm »
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So...Martin wasn't necessarily unarmed...because he could have reached Zimmerman's gun.
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« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2012, 04:08:06 pm »
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So by that logic, if a police officer pulls you over and walks right next to your window so that his holster is within the range of your arm, he is then within his rights to shoot you dead, because simply by being in proximity to a firearm, you are armed.
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« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2012, 04:21:23 pm »
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Even if I accepted JJ's point (which I don't), I'm failing to make the logical leap from it being reasonable to call the police to it being reasonable to stalk and murder an unarmed teenager. Huh

Well, we're just dealing with part of it.

BRTD, and a few others, are saying, basically:

"OMG, OMG, Zimmerman called the cops.  He's evil, EVIL!"

That isn't evil.  Zimmerman, who was part of the town watch, saw someone who wasn't from the area, at night, in an area where people don't usually walk.  It's reasonable to call the police in that circumstance.  That is actually a good indication he was not trying to be vigilante.

The questions is, what happened after that?  Did Zimmerman heed the warning and stop following Martin?  We know he left his car.   
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« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2012, 04:21:38 pm »
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So...Martin wasn't necessarily unarmed...because he could have reached Zimmerman's gun.
If he was in physical control of Zimmerman and could have grabbed the gun, he could have shot Zimmerman. 

Oakvale had the fantasy that Zimmerman had been stalking Martin, and implied that because Martin had not been carrying that Zimmerman could not perceive that his life was at risk.

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« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2012, 04:26:09 pm »
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So by that logic, if a police officer pulls you over and walks right next to your window so that his holster is within the range of your arm, he is then within his rights to shoot you dead, because simply by being in proximity to a firearm, you are armed.
If there are two cops, and you grab for the gun of one; you should expect to be dead.

You're not suggesting that Zimmerman walked up to Martin, pulled out his gun and shot Martin are you?
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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2012, 04:45:38 pm »
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So by that logic, if a police officer pulls you over and walks right next to your window so that his holster is within the range of your arm, he is then within his rights to shoot you dead, because simply by being in proximity to a firearm, you are armed.
If there are two cops, and you grab for the gun of one; you should expect to be dead.

You're not suggesting that Zimmerman walked up to Martin, pulled out his gun and shot Martin are you?

No, that's what you were suggesting.

Quote
If someone has a gun within his reach, he is not necessarily unarmed, regardless of his age.

Zimmerman walked up to Martin, the gun was within Martin's reach, Martin wasn't "necessarily unarmed" regardless of his age, so Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense.
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« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2012, 05:51:58 pm »
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Here seems to be the tape:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw&feature=relmfu

Now, why did Zimmerman get out of the car?
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« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2012, 06:02:10 pm »
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This one, again if accurate, indicates that a guy in a white tee shirt was on top.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSyBNJqSQic&feature=relmfu

If that was Zimmerman, we're talking about him being the aggressor.  If Martin, he'd be the aggressor.
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« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2012, 07:53:25 pm »
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Well, isn't this trick-or-treating the archetypal Unamerican Activity? Only an Islamic terrorist would do it.
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« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2012, 07:56:05 pm »
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To sum up, I really love this description of America as the place where walking the street is a suspicious activity, warranting a police investigation. I've always been under the impression, that the US is a free country and not a police state of the North Korean type. Apparently, at least according to J.J., I was wrong.
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« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2012, 08:04:57 pm »
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This one, again if accurate, indicates that a guy in a white tee shirt was on top.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSyBNJqSQic&feature=relmfu

If that was Zimmerman, we're talking about him being the aggressor.  If Martin, he'd be the aggressor.

No, it is not that simple.  The initial aggressor could have easily been the first one to fall. Also, who is on top could have changed during the altercation.

The aggressor, by an definition of the term, is the one who initiated the altercation - not the one who was better at fighting. Still less, the one who momentarily found himself on top. I could very well see Zimmerman being beaten up at some point in the interaction, and still being the attacker.

If every loser in every street scuffle is allowed to shoot his opponent, this does sound like dicriminalizing murder.
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« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2012, 08:19:46 pm »
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To sum up, I really love this description of America as the place where walking the street is a suspicious activity, warranting a police investigation.

But of course it is.  Anybody who doesn't drive to get anywhere - even if it's just from your front door to your mailbox - is clearly a dangerous ecoterrorist.
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« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2012, 08:38:43 pm »
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To sum up, I really love this description of America as the place where walking the street is a suspicious activity, warranting a police investigation. I've always been under the impression, that the US is a free country and not a police state of the North Korean type. Apparently, at least according to J.J., I was wrong.

You were wrong.  The bulk of Americans don't walk behind houses, in strange neighborhoods, at night, in the rain.  It is not criminal, but it is unusual, and suspicious.  It does warrant the police saying, "Hey, what are you doing here."
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« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2012, 09:09:25 pm »
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Even if I accepted JJ's point (which I don't), I'm failing to make the logical leap from it being reasonable to call the police to it being reasonable to stalk and murder an unarmed teenager. Huh
That isn't evil.  Zimmerman, who was part of the town watch, saw someone who wasn't from the area, at night, in an area where people don't usually walk.  It's reasonable to call the police in that circumstance.  That is actually a good indication he was not trying to be vigilante.

The questions is, what happened after that?  Did Zimmerman heed the warning and stop following Martin?  We know he left his car.   
From the phone call, it sounds like Martin wasn't walking in any sort of a direct way.  If he had, he would have easily traversed the area in the 2 minutes before he was reported as running, plus whatever time there was before before Zimmerman called police.  It was the erratic motion that attracted Zimmerman's attention.  

I suspect that there may be some foot traffic through the neighborhood.  There is only walls on the main street side and there were reports of people going into the adjacent neighborhoods on the interior.  There are separate pedestrian gates at the entrances, and an elementary school across the street.   In the Google street level photo (April 2011) the front vehicle gates (in and out) are wide open and no vehicles in site.  The back gate might stay locked which prevents cars from driving through.   And the front gates might be on a timer.

Zimmerman got out of his car when Martin started running.   The dispatcher asked him which way Martin was running.  Zimmerman told him toward the "other entrance".   The door closed and Zimmerman apparently started following after him, explaining to the dispatcher as he did so what he meant by the "other gate".   Arguably, Zimmerman was responding to the dispatcher's questions.

The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he were following, Zimmerman said "yeah" and the dispatcher told him that he did not need to do that.   Zimmerman said OK, and the noises, either wind or puffing sounds stopped.   The dispatcher then asked for Zimmerman's name and phone number, and whether he wanted to meet with the police officer when he arrived.

If the warning not to follow is the audible one, it was after Zimmerman had got out of the car and the dispatcher was seeking additional information that could only be gained by moving.

If the claim was that Zimmerman did not instantaneously stop moving as he said OK.  It is a pretty weak case.

If they are going to allege that he was following while talking to the dispatcher for another 1-1/2 minutes during the phone call and another 1-1/2 minutes after the phone call they're going to need some corroborative evidence and explain how the 3 minutes of following resulted in less than 100 feet of motion.


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« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2012, 09:22:22 pm »
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If there are two cops, and you grab for the gun of one; you should expect to be dead.

You're not suggesting that Zimmerman walked up to Martin, pulled out his gun and shot Martin are you?
No, that's what you were suggesting.

Quote
If someone has a gun within his reach, he is not necessarily unarmed, regardless of his age.

Zimmerman walked up to Martin, the gun was within Martin's reach, Martin wasn't "necessarily unarmed" regardless of his age, so Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense.
Martin had a weapon of opportunity within his reach, he may have attempted to reach for it or threatened to reach for it.  He may not have been "armed".   But he can't be called "unarmed" either.

And it definitely a lie that Zimmerman stalked Martin.   If he had it would be a 1st degree murder charge.
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« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2012, 09:23:24 pm »
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You know, I guarantee that if I declared myself the "Whittier Neighborhood Watch Captain" or some nonsense like that and started driving around my neighborhood looking for "suspicious" people like Zimmerman was, I'd be FAR more likely to get stopped by the police than for simply walking in backalleys, which I do all the time.

And with good reason, because someone driving around the neighborhood aimlessly is far more likely to have negative intentions than someone simply walking through it. I also imagine the Minneapolis PD wouldn't appreciate me calling them every single time I notice someone I don't recognize walking behind a building.
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« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2012, 09:29:53 pm »
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Here seems to be the tape:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw&feature=relmfu

Now, why did Zimmerman get out of the car?
Martin was starting to run.  If you listen closely, the dispatcher asks which way he was running, then the door opens (chimes ring), and it is about 5 seconds, as Zimmerman makes his initial assessment and then the door closes, a total of 7 seconds, during which Martin might have run 100 feet.

He was complying with the dispatcher's request to get additional information.
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« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2012, 09:39:06 pm »
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Even if I accepted JJ's point (which I don't), I'm failing to make the logical leap from it being reasonable to call the police to it being reasonable to stalk and murder an unarmed teenager. Huh
That isn't evil.  Zimmerman, who was part of the town watch, saw someone who wasn't from the area, at night, in an area where people don't usually walk.  It's reasonable to call the police in that circumstance.  That is actually a good indication he was not trying to be vigilante.

The questions is, what happened after that?  Did Zimmerman heed the warning and stop following Martin?  We know he left his car.   
From the phone call, it sounds like Martin wasn't walking in any sort of a direct way.  If he had, he would have easily traversed the area in the 2 minutes before he was reported as running, plus whatever time there was before before Zimmerman called police.  It was the erratic motion that attracted Zimmerman's attention.  

I suspect that there may be some foot traffic through the neighborhood.  There is only walls on the main street side and there were reports of people going into the adjacent neighborhoods on the interior.  There are separate pedestrian gates at the entrances, and an elementary school across the street.   In the Google street level photo (April 2011) the front vehicle gates (in and out) are wide open and no vehicles in site.  The back gate might stay locked which prevents cars from driving through.   And the front gates might be on a timer.

Zimmerman got out of his car when Martin started running.   The dispatcher asked him which way Martin was running.  Zimmerman told him toward the "other entrance".   The door closed and Zimmerman apparently started following after him, explaining to the dispatcher as he did so what he meant by the "other gate".   Arguably, Zimmerman was responding to the dispatcher's questions.

The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he were following, Zimmerman said "yeah" and the dispatcher told him that he did not need to do that.   Zimmerman said OK, and the noises, either wind or puffing sounds stopped.   The dispatcher then asked for Zimmerman's name and phone number, and whether he wanted to meet with the police officer when he arrived.

If the warning not to follow is the audible one, it was after Zimmerman had got out of the car and the dispatcher was seeking additional information that could only be gained by moving.

If the claim was that Zimmerman did not instantaneously stop moving as he said OK.  It is a pretty weak case.

If they are going to allege that he was following while talking to the dispatcher for another 1-1/2 minutes during the phone call and another 1-1/2 minutes after the phone call they're going to need some corroborative evidence and explain how the 3 minutes of following resulted in less than 100 feet of motion.



American neighborhoods are often poorly designed for walking so people take shortcuts across the grass/avoid the sidewalk. Do we actually know where 7/11 and where Martin's dad lives and  where Zimmerman saw him?
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« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2012, 09:52:28 pm »
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I've walked around my neighborhood late at night in the rain. Should I be suspected?
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« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2012, 09:55:23 pm »
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You know, I guarantee that if I declared myself the "Whittier Neighborhood Watch Captain" or some nonsense like that and started driving around my neighborhood looking for "suspicious" people like Zimmerman was, I'd be FAR more likely to get stopped by the police than for simply walking in backalleys, which I do all the time.

And with good reason, because someone driving around the neighborhood aimlessly is far more likely to have negative intentions than someone simply walking through it. I also imagine the Minneapolis PD wouldn't appreciate me calling them every single time I notice someone I don't recognize walking behind a building.
But what if you had attended a Neighborhood Watch meeting at which you volunteered to be the "captain", which is not a title of your choosing but something that Neighborhood Watch uses (they apparently have neighborhood captains and block captains).   And the police officer told you to report anything out of the ordinary, and the next day you report a garage door open (giving the name of the officer).   And the Minneapolis police dispatched two officers to the scene and verified that the home owner was there.

If I called you a "self-appointed watch captain" it would be a lie.

Do you think that Zimmerman stole the Neighborhood Watch signs from a high-crime neighborhood and then trampled the flower beds to plant them outside the walls of his cloistered community?
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« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2012, 10:00:07 pm »
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I've walked around my neighborhood late at night in the rain. Should I be suspected?

The colors of: (1) your skin, (2) my skin, and (3) my avatar would suggest yes.  Once again, in this country the first way to reduce suspicion by the neighborhood watch is to get off the sidewalk and into a car.  Only poor people and young people walk anywhere, and those groups are likelier to commit crimes.
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« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2012, 10:04:45 pm »
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You know, I guarantee that if I declared myself the "Whittier Neighborhood Watch Captain" or some nonsense like that and started driving around my neighborhood looking for "suspicious" people like Zimmerman was, I'd be FAR more likely to get stopped by the police than for simply walking in backalleys, which I do all the time.

And with good reason, because someone driving around the neighborhood aimlessly is far more likely to have negative intentions than someone simply walking through it. I also imagine the Minneapolis PD wouldn't appreciate me calling them every single time I notice someone I don't recognize walking behind a building.
But what if you had attended a Neighborhood Watch meeting at which you volunteered to be the "captain", which is not a title of your choosing but something that Neighborhood Watch uses (they apparently have neighborhood captains and block captains).   And the police officer told you to report anything out of the ordinary, and the next day you report a garage door open (giving the name of the officer).   And the Minneapolis police dispatched two officers to the scene and verified that the home owner was there.

If I called you a "self-appointed watch captain" it would be a lie.

Do you think that Zimmerman stole the Neighborhood Watch signs from a high-crime neighborhood and then trampled the flower beds to plant them outside the walls of his cloistered community?

I doubt the Minneapolis PD would ever do that, since they would rather deal with other things than some wannabe vigilante jackass reporting anything "suspicious". Believe me, "anything out of the ordinary" here would be there NOT being any unrecognized people walking in areas like backalleys.

I mean I do see signs in some places saying neighborhood watch and that they'll report crimes, but it means just that, they'll report any crimes being witnessed, not drive around aimlessly looking for "suspicious" people. And then of course if such a person is found getting outside and confronting them with a gun which the 911 dispatcher says explicitly not to do (and is also just common sense).
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« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2012, 11:03:05 pm »
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American neighborhoods are often poorly designed for walking so people take shortcuts across the grass/avoid the sidewalk. Do we actually know where 7/11 and where Martin's dad lives and  where Zimmerman saw him?
There is a 7/11 about 0.8 miles.   It doesn't show up in a 7/11 search, but you can see it on a Google street view.   There has been a report that the police have subpoenaed the surveillance disk, and someone had said that a black male was in the video, though they wouldn't commit to the age.   Note that 7/11 can be used as a generic term for convenience store, just as coke is used for pop.   The area is just off of I-4, and there are shopping centers, and big box stores, and car dealerships, and other commercial within walking distance.

The route to the 7/11 would require walking on the shoulder of a divided roadway (grass median) or crossing over and crossing back.

We know where Tracy Martin girlfriend lives.  Tracy Martin lives in Miami, but visits his girlfriend (who has been described as fiancee), and apparently brought Trayvon along.   This was not the first time Trayvon had visited.  There was a local TV video that aired the night after the shooting.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

It shows Tracy Martin and his girlfriend who is identified as Brandy Green, "knew teen who was shot".   As she talks she flips her hand to indicate how close he was to her house,  The text of the story conflates Martin and Green, possibly because Tracy can be a female name.

If you watch the very beginning of the video, you can see Martin and Green approaching in the distance, from near where she lives.   It is about 500 feet from where the shooting happened.

Supposedly Tracy Martin and Green had gone to dinner, and left Trayvon with Green's 14 YO son.   When Martin and Green returned from dinner a few hours later, they tried dialing Trayvon's cell, and then called a cousin - there had been a possibility of them going to a movie.   The next morning, Tracy Martin reported a missing person to the Sanford police, and they said they needed to talk, and sent a squad car, and two unmarked cars, including a chaplain, and brought along pictures of Martin with eyes rolled back and tongue sticking out for them to make a positive ID.   As you can see, the going to the store was well established by then.  Maybe Chad had told them, maybe there was a receipt.

The neighborhood is not very big and his made up of 6-unit townhouses, which have almost continuous driveways going into 2-car garages on the front of the units.  Many of the streets don't have sidewalks.   There is a series of the sidewalks along the backs of units intended for internal circulation.

We do know pretty much where Zimmerman was during the first part of the call, because there is an odd street configuration.   When you come into the neighborhood, there is a loop street that circles the entire neighborhood and would be the street access for most residents.  You would come in the gate and turn left or right almost immediately.

Or you can go straight, but the street makes a 90 degree left turn 120 feet in and then and another 90 degree turn.   So Zimmerman was trying to explain over the phone not to turn left, but to go straight and turn left.   If you are looking at a map, it is easy to understand.

Zimmerman did a walk through for the police the day after which was videotaped.   Zimmerman's father watched from a distance and relayed what he saw.

The distance traveled (1000 feet from entrance to Green's house, but about 500 feet to location of the shooting) and the time of the call to the time of the start of altercation (about
5-1/2 minutes do not match).

At a slow pace 30-minute miles, the 1000 feet could be covered.  The shorter distance would be much much slower, indicating little movement (eg someone wandering around while being observed, and someone standing around waiting for the police).
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