Future of Fianna Fail

[Tetro Kornbluth]

What are, as of today, the actual policy differences between FF and FG ? From a non-Irish perspective, they don't seem much different.

The former worships de Valera, while the latter worships Michael Collins. That's all you need to know.

The historical and symbolic things are important (THIS is Ireland, remember?) but as ObserverIE and others will no doubt tell you, FG's base is much more to the "right" (as far as that term has any meaning in the Irish context) but more small-town patrician than FF's.

<Has just read ObserverIE last post> Ah yes, but the desire to turn Ireland into a damper, anglophone (hell, sometimes not even that) version of Portugal was hardly the desire of just elements of Fine Gael in the 1930s. Ever read copies of Studies or the Irish ecclestical review? They are.... ummm... enlightening.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

On the difference between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael I would go slightly further than ObserverIE and note that FF has always had a type of ideology that here would be described as "populist", as the Irish people are not people particularly noted for their attachment to ideas (but we are hardly alone in this) this has meant FF's stated-ideology-of-power can change according to fashion and can often do so (or rather now, did so) without anyone really noticing much of a change.

Unlike ObserverIE though, I don't think there is much room for an ideological right-wing party in the present context. The failure of the various anti-immigrant groups or hardline Catholics (excluding who have won eurovision song contests and even those have not done so well recently) to form one and take at least one seat at any level shows that there are certain things that haven't managed to take root in the Irish context.

But with living standards falling as they are and no end in sight, who knows really....

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Ah yes, but the desire to turn Ireland into a damper, anglophone (hell, sometimes not even that) version of Portugal was hardly the desire of just elements of Fine Gael in the 1930s. Ever read copies of Studies or the Irish ecclestical review? They are.... ummm... enlightening.

The Jesuits (publishers of Studies) would always have been more Fine Gael's type of religious order, of course. I'm sure there was a good deal of cross-fertilisation at the time.

De Valera, for all the opprobrium cast on him (or at least on a caricature of him) these days, kept us as a democratic and (relatively) pluralist state all through the 1930s when the fashionable trends in Europe were for the abandonment of democracy and the elevation of the strongman.

Our luck in that regard was that De Valera was the closest thing he had to a strong man (O'Duffy? No). Oh, and the absence of any real socialist or liberal 'threat'.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Unlike ObserverIE though, I don't think there is much room for an ideological right-wing party in the present context. The failure of the various anti-immigrant groups or hardline Catholics (excluding who have won eurovision song contests and even those have not done so well recently) to form one and take at least one seat at any level shows that there are certain things that haven't managed to take root in the Irish context.

But with living standards falling as they are and no end in sight, who knows really....

Hardline Catholics have always been irrelevant in elections if all they were offering was hardline Catholicism, even in the 1980s and 1990s (see Nora Bennis, the Christian Solidarity Party, etc.). Anti-immigrant groups were hampered by being led by obvious cranks (see Áine Ní Chonaill).

I would be much more worried about the likes of Declan Ganley and other hard-right slash-and-burners if things get desperate enough, with an enthusiastic group of media cheerleaders (NewsTalk, Independent Newspapers, etc.)

That's quite possible, but I don't see that coming from Ganley but more likely from some ex-FF/FG type who claims to speak for "de peeple". Perhaps someone whose major talent would be the ability to say the word "entrepreneur" a lot. This would a bit different though from a classical right-wing party, more a league of militant bourgeoise consumerists, that minority who are confused and believe firmly The Sunday Independent is actually a newspaper (such people actually existed or at least so I'm told).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Ah yes, but the desire to turn Ireland into a damper, anglophone (hell, sometimes not even that) version of Portugal was hardly the desire of just elements of Fine Gael in the 1930s. Ever read copies of Studies or the Irish ecclestical review? They are.... ummm... enlightening.

The Jesuits (publishers of Studies) would always have been more Fine Gael's type of religious order, of course. I'm sure there was a good deal of cross-fertilisation at the time.

De Valera, for all the opprobrium cast on him (or at least on a caricature of him) these days, kept us as a democratic and (relatively) pluralist state all through the 1930s when the fashionable trends in Europe were for the abandonment of democracy and the elevation of the strongman.

Our luck in that regard was that De Valera was the closest thing he had to a strong man (O'Duffy? No). Oh, and the absence of any real socialist or liberal 'threat'.

Plenty of supposedly more responsible and respectable Fine Gaelers (Ernest Blythe, John A. Costello, Desmond FitzGerald) would have been perfectly happy to be in that junta if only they'd gotten the chance.

If De Valera or Fianna Fáil had been inclined towards authoritarianism in the 30s, they had the parliamentary majority from 1933 through to 1938 to implement it. They didn't.

I never said they did. Nor am I disagreeing with you. I'm only saying that the absence of any liberal-socialist 'threat' make the far-right much weaker than it could have been in the circumstances (Fianna Fail were too obvious an Irish type of populist party even then to fit the boogeyman role perfectly).

Btw, you forgot to mention J.J. Walsh or, of a slightly later vintage, Oliver J. Flanagan. The most obnoxious fascists of the lot.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Err.. Thus the comment on a Flanagan being of "a slightly later vintage". He was first elected in 1943 iirc in part by Jew-baiting. I actually had one of Flanagan's quotes on the Jews on my signature for a while but it has since been mislaid.

Clann na Talmhan and later, post war, Clann na Poblachta had their fair share of fascists as well.

Back on topic: If Fianna Fail does have a future it is, somewhat absurdly, as a party that is even more in hock to certain (rural, small town, nationalistic) interests than it is already; gombeenism plus so to speak. Though how useful is a gombeen party if it can only achieve power in a coalition? The party is effectively dead in Dublin though and there is no sight of it recovering there (and no party could possibly be in power without significant representation in the capital).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

That's quite possible, but I don't see that coming from Ganley but more likely from some ex-FF/FG type who claims to speak for "de peeple". Perhaps someone whose major talent would be the ability to say the word "entrepreneur" a lot.

On further thought, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with that particular individual.

I would have in mind a certain loudmouthed bankruptcy tourist with a newspaper column and, until very very recently, a breakfast radio show.

Lol. Funny story here. I went to bed last...uhmm.. morning trying to think about who exactly you were talking about. As I tried to get to sleep, I thought for a while about other potential future "leaders" of this country, an image came to me for a former FG TD for Wexford who until recently owned a chain of bookies across the country but had recently been made bankrupt and was a known right-wing cretin for his appearances on Vincent Brown and his newspaper article.... I thought about this for a while, and then realized "Oh wait, hang on".

He would be a perfect candidate for this.

Clann na Poblachta had a substantial fascist faction? That's interesting. My (admittedly rather uninformed) understanding was that it was something like today's Sinn Féin in its espousal of left-wing nationalism.

Elements of it were, yes. The thing to note about CnP was that it essentially attracted all the republican and nationalist elements who were, for various reasons, annoyed at De Valera and FF. So it could include Noel Browne (whose time as minister for health showed that he was an obvious socialist on many issues) but also many former members of Ailtiri na hAiserighe. The party though remained somewhat conservative though reformist as a whole, very much in the FF mode, as was shown when McBride pushed Browne off a cliff during the mother and child debacle.

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I wasn't. Only to say that it would increasing represent interests that are somewhat divorced from those of other parts of the country. I wouldn't say gombeenism doesn't exist in the Capital, but it comes in a different flavour.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Resigning in disgrace seems to be something PMs in Anglo-Saxon countries do quite often (or, when they don't, getting thrown out by their own party).

No.

Anglo-Celt. Get it right.