Interesting poll of Irish Catholics reveals widespread disagreement with Church.

[oakvale]

Here's a new poll on behalf of the Association of Catholic Priests.

Some findings -

87% of Irish Catholics believe priests should be allowed to marry.

77% support allowing female priests.

An impressive () 75% of Irish Catholics believe that the Church's teachings on sexuality have no relevance to them or their families. As you might expect, there's a signifcant generational gap on this.

61% of Irish Catholics disagree with the Church's stance on homosexuality, with 46% disagreeing strongly compared to just 9% agreeing strongly. 21% don't know or care. Again, there's a predictably large generational gap on this, too.

87% of Irish Catholics believe that divorced and/or seperated people should be allowed to receive communion. 5% disagree.



Very interesting results, if not that surprising considering how a-la-carte the average Irish Catholic is. I do wish they'd polled attitudes on divorce, since it'd be interesting to see how far the country's come since 1995. The question regarding divorced people receiving communion suggests we'd see an overwhelming majority supporting legal divorce, though.

I wonder how similar the results of a poll of American Catholics would be.


Full results here.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

Opposition to divorce was really more about property than OMG TEH LAWS OF DE JEEBUS!!!1111. Now that everyone realizes that legalized divorce will not mean the end of the family farm, and indeed, there are less family farms to be potentially split up, a lot of the public concerns that originally existed about divorce has simply disappeared.

Unsurprising numbers, btw. Irish Catholics were always a la carte in many ways, but now they are being so in a different way.

[So the Heroes Fall]

I wonder how similar the results of a poll of American Catholics would be.

It'd be quite different. The primary reason being in the US people who realize they don't have anything in common with the Catholic Church leave it and quite affiliating with it for inane reasons. These people in Ireland ought to do the same.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

I wonder how similar the results of a poll of American Catholics would be.

It'd be quite different. The primary reason being in the US people who realize they don't have anything in common with the Catholic Church leave it and quite affiliating with it for inane reasons. These people in Ireland ought to do the same.

This is Europe. Such consumer approval tests don't apply to the churches here, really. There is still the mindset, at least towards census enumerators, of Cuius regio, eius religio. But that doesn't mean that lots haven't abandoned the church in practice. In some Dublin parishes attendances at mass, for example, are down to 2-3 percent and this is despite the large influx of Eastern European Catholics (who are likely to be much more demonstrative in their devotion) in the last decade or so.

[asexual trans victimologist]

I wonder how similar the results of a poll of American Catholics would be.

It'd be quite different. The primary reason being in the US people who realize they don't have anything in common with the Catholic Church leave it and quite affiliating with it for inane reasons. These people in Ireland ought to do the same.

Even many or most of the atheists in Ireland are Catholic, BRTD, and have every cultural and affective reason to be so.

[So the Heroes Fall]

I wonder how similar the results of a poll of American Catholics would be.

It'd be quite different. The primary reason being in the US people who realize they don't have anything in common with the Catholic Church leave it and quite affiliating with it for inane reasons. These people in Ireland ought to do the same.

Even many or most of the atheists in Ireland are Catholic, BRTD, and have every cultural and affective reason to be so.

Based on what though? Like most of the people I know raised Catholic who don't agree with the church and aren't involved in it in any way now don't claim to be Catholic.

[asexual trans victimologist]

I wonder how similar the results of a poll of American Catholics would be.

It'd be quite different. The primary reason being in the US people who realize they don't have anything in common with the Catholic Church leave it and quite affiliating with it for inane reasons. These people in Ireland ought to do the same.

Even many or most of the atheists in Ireland are Catholic, BRTD, and have every cultural and affective reason to be so.

Based on what though? Like most of the people I know raised Catholic who don't agree with the church and aren't involved in it in any way now don't claim to be Catholic.

Based in part, one assumes, on the fact of being Irish. It might seem vaguely phyletic but considering the history of Irish culture and the place of the Church within it it does have to be admitted of as entirely different from hipsters of your acquaintance making clean breaks.

You've said that you still have some instinctively Lutheran characteristics, right? It's like that, only stronger because of the nature of the country and its history.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

BRTD this explains it as well as I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVNZFylTdo

[So the Heroes Fall]

You've said that you still have some instinctively Lutheran characteristics, right? It's like that, only stronger because of the nature of the country and its history.

But the difference is I actually like the ELCA. Now if I were from LCMS or WELS I doubt I'd feel that way. And really, the role of the Catholic church in Irish history is not something I'd be too proud about or want to affiliate with...(A 12th Century Pope being the whole reason the rather hated British even took it over in the first place just for starters...)

[oakvale]

BRTD this explains it as well as I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVNZFylTdo

Heh, I actually referenced that clip a couple of months ago which led to a very negative reaction from BRTD.

[So the Heroes Fall]

BRTD this explains it as well as I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVNZFylTdo

Heh, I actually referenced that clip a couple of months ago which led to a very negative reaction from BRTD.

Well yeah because it'd be utter nonsense if it was serious and not just some comedian.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

You've said that you still have some instinctively Lutheran characteristics, right? It's like that, only stronger because of the nature of the country and its history.

But the difference is I actually like the ELCA. Now if I were from LCMS or WELS I doubt I'd feel that way. And really, the role of the Catholic church in Irish history is not something I'd be too proud about or want to affiliate with...(A 12th Century Pope being the whole reason the rather hated British even took it over in the first place just for starters...)

Way to fail Medieval History and Politics 101, BRTD. The Norman invasion (not English and certainly not British) was given sanction by Pope Adrian IV (who could have easily been ignored if he hadn't), not caused by it.

As for the clip, yes it is by a comedian but I can't believe that even you can't recognize that he is referring to something real.

[So the Heroes Fall]

You've said that you still have some instinctively Lutheran characteristics, right? It's like that, only stronger because of the nature of the country and its history.

But the difference is I actually like the ELCA. Now if I were from LCMS or WELS I doubt I'd feel that way. And really, the role of the Catholic church in Irish history is not something I'd be too proud about or want to affiliate with...(A 12th Century Pope being the whole reason the rather hated British even took it over in the first place just for starters...)

Way to fail Medieval History and Politics 101, BRTD. The Norman invasion (not English and certainly not British) was given sanction by Pope Adrian IV (who could have easily been ignored if he hadn't), not caused by it.

But I don't think giving sanction would be something one would be too proud of in history either. And that's really just the start of the whole thing...

As for the clip, yes it is by a comedian but I can't believe that even you can't recognize that he is referring to something real.

But...it's not true to many as I've noted, to which taking it literally would actually be pretty offensive.

Like what he said about joining the Taliban. OK well that's a joke. But joining a hipster church or Nathan's which is quite known for sucking away ex-Catholics in the US and now you have something quite real, you see?

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

I'm sorry for being Irish, I don't know what you mean by a hipster church, really. At least I can imagine what that means and I doubt it to appeals to much Irish people; maybe a small subsection of Irish protestants (especially in the north...), maybe...

The point is BRTD that to most people being Irish and Catholic are symnomous. People who stop being Catholic in any religious sense identify themselves as "Catholic" because they are Irish. That is what they are. It is an unthinking reflex.

And where was I saying that anyone was proud of the actions of Pope Adrian IV?

[asexual trans victimologist]

Religion smorgasbords that you can drift in and out of throughout your life are a culturally specific thing, BRTD. They don't generally have much meaning outside an American context.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

Religion smorgasbords that you can drift in and out of throughout your life are a culturally specific thing, BRTD. They don't generally have much meaning outside an American context.

I'll note as well that Irish protestant churches have not really covered themselves in glory over the past couple of years... or, like, forever.

[So the Heroes Fall]

I'm sorry for being Irish, I don't know what you mean by a hipster church, really. At least I can imagine what that means and I doubt it to appeals to much Irish people; maybe a small subsection of Irish protestants (especially in the north...), maybe...

Well trying to define a "hipster church" is like trying to define "emo", but essentially what we are talking about is churches that have a mostly young and non-"churchy" congregation (people like me) as opposed to the stereotypical church full of olds who dress up and actually play good music like what hipsters listen to instead of that traditional church music or that awful Christian contemporary crap. Like I've seen people from my church at shows like The Jealous Sound and Explosions in the Sky. And the whole point is to make Christianity more relevant and modern for the present day. And the services are closer to one of my music shows than a Catholic mass or traditional Protestant service including with that charismatic hand raising and jumping stuff. I doubt Paisley and co. are too big on it and I noted that I don't know if such churches even exist outside the US, Canada and Australia. This site kind of does a good job of tongue-in-cheek explaining it.

But anyway the point is these type of churches are often full of people raised Catholic and don't want anything to do with the church anymore, and since they actually have converted to something else it would strike me as kind of ridiculous to insist on them still being Catholic any more than it would be for someone raised Catholic who converted to Islam or Buddhism or whatever. I mean note this (not my church, but a similar one in Minneapolis), the video at the bottom "Krysta Baptism" where she talks about this, it's similar to all the testimonials I've heard where people talk about how the church of their birth turned them away and hurt them and then they realized that God never stopped loving them and how they can still have a relationship with Christ instead of following religion and all that, a very common theme.

The point is BRTD that to most people being Irish and Catholic are symnomous. People who stop being Catholic in any religious sense identify themselves as "Catholic" because they are Irish. That is what they are. It is an unthinking reflex.

OK, and I see that as really really silly. Now maybe this is a very American-centric view as Nathan noted, but it really just does not compute for me.

And where was I saying that anyone was proud of the actions of Pope Adrian IV?

That's beside the point, my point is that I wouldn't be proud of the Catholic church's actions in Irish history and would see that as a reason to NOT affiliate it with it any way.

[shua]

re: Ireland and hipster Christianity

Peter Rollins, associated with the Emergent Church movement (and thus one might say "hipster Christianity") started a community in Belfast called Ikon.

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/peter-rollins-interview.html

In the West I think we will continue to rediscover the wealth of the mystical tradition and negative theology. These are the wells that we should drink from and which may bring new life to the church. I really hope we rediscover the place of parable, of art, of not trying to give people doctrinal answers but rather to evoke questions. In Ikon we are exploring the idea of transformative art, an art form which evokes transformation in the participant.

admittedly, this is sounds a different in form than the American hipster practices BRTD is describing, but it can come out of some similar  concerns.  (Rollins has preached at Rob Bell's church for instance)

[Јas]

You've said that you still have some instinctively Lutheran characteristics, right? It's like that, only stronger because of the nature of the country and its history.

But the difference is I actually like the ELCA. Now if I were from LCMS or WELS I doubt I'd feel that way. And really, the role of the Catholic church in Irish history is not something I'd be too proud about or want to affiliate with...(A 12th Century Pope being the whole reason the rather hated British even took it over in the first place just for starters...)

Way to fail Medieval History and Politics 101, BRTD. The Norman invasion (not English and certainly not British) was given sanction by Pope Adrian IV (who could have easily been ignored if he hadn't), not caused by it.

But I don't think giving sanction would be something one would be too proud of in history either. And that's really just the start of the whole thing...

Only if one accepts that Laudabiliter actually existed in the first place; or that even if it did exist, that the Cambrensis version is a faithful representation of it.

[afleitch]

Not a suprising poll at all (and probably a more progressive response from members than you would find in BRTD's Vineyard Movement )

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

re: Ireland and hipster Christianity

Peter Rollins, associated with the Emergent Church movement (and thus one might say "hipster Christianity") started a community in Belfast called Ikon.

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/peter-rollins-interview.html

In the West I think we will continue to rediscover the wealth of the mystical tradition and negative theology. These are the wells that we should drink from and which may bring new life to the church. I really hope we rediscover the place of parable, of art, of not trying to give people doctrinal answers but rather to evoke questions. In Ikon we are exploring the idea of transformative art, an art form which evokes transformation in the participant.

admittedly, this is sounds a different in form than the American hipster practices BRTD is describing, but it can come out of some similar  concerns.  (Rollins has preached at Rob Bell's church for instance)

I think you will find that Belfast is not located in the country which we are refering to in this thread.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It isn't called The Great Falling Away for nothing.

[So the Heroes Fall]

re: Ireland and hipster Christianity

Peter Rollins, associated with the Emergent Church movement (and thus one might say "hipster Christianity") started a community in Belfast called Ikon.

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/peter-rollins-interview.html

In the West I think we will continue to rediscover the wealth of the mystical tradition and negative theology. These are the wells that we should drink from and which may bring new life to the church. I really hope we rediscover the place of parable, of art, of not trying to give people doctrinal answers but rather to evoke questions. In Ikon we are exploring the idea of transformative art, an art form which evokes transformation in the participant.

admittedly, this is sounds a different in form than the American hipster practices BRTD is describing, but it can come out of some similar  concerns.  (Rollins has preached at Rob Bell's church for instance)

I think you will find that Belfast is not located in the country which we are refering to in this thread.

True but still interesting of note since as I said I wasn't sure how widespread these type of churches were. Thanks shua.

Not a suprising poll at all (and probably a more progressive response from members than you would find in BRTD's Vineyard Movement )

Well considering the Vineyard Movement already has married pastors and female pastors that's clearly not the case for the first couple of those...And one of the pastors at my church who baptized me I learned does support gay marriage while talking to him before that, which isn't too surprising for a 20something guy who used to work at an organic food co-op, has played in several bands, and lives in a ~90% Obama neighborhood.

And while this is difficult to prove I'd be pretty confident that ex-Catholics who joined the Vineyard are more progressive on those issues than American Catholics, especially since they are likely to be people who were backslid for awhile and certainly holding progressive views as I noted with Nathan, it's easier to get someone who supports gay marriage to believe in charismatic theology stuff than to oppose gay marriage. memphis actually posted this very good article elsewhere and the researcher in it noted she encountered a wide diversity of opinions despite your attempt to smear everyone involved in the Vineyard as nothing but completely made up of right wing fundies.

[So the Heroes Fall]

OK, I can sort of understand the line of thought that Catholicism is so embedded into some cultures that people from those cultures can't see themselves as truly separating from it even if they lapse into non-practice or even don't believe in God and the whole thing.

What I don't like is how some try to extend this to ALL Catholics. In the Midwest there aren't very many people who are Catholic in that way, if you were raised Catholic and went to a public or secular private school than that's simply the church you happened to be raised in, as most people here are, it could've been Lutheran or even something else but it just so happened to be Catholic. So there's no real type of cultural connection in people who were raised Catholic from a "generic Midwestern" background, I should also point out that if your parents weren't especially devout they might've had you baptized but if you only went to church like maybe every two months and Easter and Christmas (or maybe just the last two), and you went to a public school, you're not going to feel much of a connection either. Since this is the case of most of the ex-Catholics I know it just strikes me as really odd to seriously insist on things like what that comedian was joking about. If someone doesn't want to be labeled Catholic, I don't see anything unreasonable about not doing so.

[Harry]

Maybe its just a regional thing, but in my experience almost everyone raised Catholic who doesn't line up well with the church's official teachings still claims to be Catholic, while Baptists and other right wing Christian groups are more likely to abandon their labels.

Also, a poll of American Catholics would likely to be similar to this one. Catholics tend to be more liberal than America at large on virtually every political issue, regardless of what the man in Rome says (and he himself isn't as conservative as he's sometimes portrayed)