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Author Topic: The NRA paradise is here.  (Read 681 times)
Beet
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« on: April 18, 2012, 12:24:10 am »
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A newborn who was abducted from his dying mother after she was repeatedly shot outside a US pediatric centre was found safe hours later, according to Texan investigators who said the suspected shooter sped off with the infant in a blood-stained Lexus.
The three-day-old boy named Keegan was found about 8pm local time on Tuesday, about six hours after his mother, Kala Marie Golden, was fatally shot following a verbal altercation in a suburban Houston parking lot, Montgomery County District Attorney Brett Ligon said.
Mr Ligon would not say where the infant was found, but he said it was not at a nearby apartment complex where officers wielding guns and riot shields searched earlier on Tuesday evening.

"The child is healthy. The father of the child is on his way to be reunited with the child," Mr Ligon told The Associated Press.
A person of interest has been detained though no charges have been filed, he said. He would not provide any details about the person.
Ms Golden was leaving an afternoon check-up with her Keegan when she had an argument with a woman in a Lexus parked next to her pick-up truck, Montgomery County sheriff's Lieutenant Dan Norris said.

Witnesses said the woman repeatedly shot Ms Golden, took the infant and sped away, hitting the dying mother as she screamed "my baby" and tried to reach into the Lexus, Lieutenant Norris said.
Witnesses also reported hearing as many as seven gunshots and said a man was also in the sky blue or light green Lexus, which was blood-stained on the driver's side, Norris said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/my-baby-dying-mother-screams-out-for-newborn-as-shooter-speeds-off-with-threedayold-son-after-carpark-argument-20120418-1x6va.html#ixzz1sMneyHBX
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dead0man
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 12:27:09 am »
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Tragic, but what does it have to do with an NRA paradise?  (which obviously this isn't)
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 12:39:25 am »

In an NRA paradise the mother would have whipped out her own gun and shot the kidnapper and her accomplice dead before they got away.  Alas, the pediatric center probably trampled the mother's second amendment rights and would not let her carry a gun with her inside, thus leaving her vulnerable to this tragic murder/abduction.
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Haley(R) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
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Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
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DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 12:47:04 am »
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In an NRA paradise the mother would have whipped out her own gun and shot the kidnapper and her accomplice dead before they got away.  Alas, the pediatric center probably trampled the mother's second amendment rights and would not let her carry a gun with her inside, thus leaving her vulnerable to this tragic murder/abduction.

That's the standard response. Except this happened outside. Since the shooting happened before the abduction, it would have to have been a Minority Report-style mind-reading operation. The problem with the idea of guns as defensive weapons is that they aren't. They're inherently offensive and designed to kill. If anyone can get shot just because they think someone else is about to shoot them, then it's open season on anyone, anywhere. After all, maybe the couple thought the mother was about to shoot the couple?
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 01:27:26 am »

In an NRA paradise the mother would have whipped out her own gun and shot the kidnapper and her accomplice dead before they got away.  Alas, the pediatric center probably trampled the mother's second amendment rights and would not let her carry a gun with her inside, thus leaving her vulnerable to this tragic murder/abduction.

That's the standard response. Except this happened outside. Since the shooting happened before the abduction, it would have to have been a Minority Report-style mind-reading operation. The problem with the idea of guns as defensive weapons is that they aren't. They're inherently offensive and designed to kill. If anyone can get shot just because they think someone else is about to shoot them, then it's open season on anyone, anywhere. After all, maybe the couple thought the mother was about to shoot the couple?

If guns are banned inside, the mother could hardly carry a gun from her car to the door, could she?  Also, the mother reportedly lived at least long enough to scream "my baby" and try to reach into the getaway car, so in the NRA paradise, while the mother would still be dead, she'd be able to do in the malfeasants before she died of her wounds.   
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My ballot:
Haley(R) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
Beet
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 01:33:56 am »
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In an NRA paradise the mother would have whipped out her own gun and shot the kidnapper and her accomplice dead before they got away.  Alas, the pediatric center probably trampled the mother's second amendment rights and would not let her carry a gun with her inside, thus leaving her vulnerable to this tragic murder/abduction.

That's the standard response. Except this happened outside. Since the shooting happened before the abduction, it would have to have been a Minority Report-style mind-reading operation. The problem with the idea of guns as defensive weapons is that they aren't. They're inherently offensive and designed to kill. If anyone can get shot just because they think someone else is about to shoot them, then it's open season on anyone, anywhere. After all, maybe the couple thought the mother was about to shoot the couple?

If guns are banned inside, the mother could hardly carry a gun from her car to the door, could she?  Also, the mother reportedly lived at least long enough to scream "my baby" and try to reach into the getaway car, so in the NRA paradise, while the mother would still be dead, she'd be able to do in the malfeasants before she died of her wounds.   

No, because she had already reached her car and she could have pulled a gun from it. Also, we don't know that she wasn't armed. Maybe she did have a concealed weapon but was too wounded to pull it out, aim and fire. Or maybe she just didn't see the point. Or maybe she was afraid she'd accidentally hit her baby, and chose to forego vengeance to reduce danger to her baby.

Anyway, in the fake NRA paradise, three people are dead, while in the actual NRA paradise, only one person is dead. I hardly see one the former is less horrific than the latter.
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 01:34:53 am »
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The biggest mistake the gun control lobby ever made was pushing for generally ineffective and not much more than symbolic legislation like the Brady Bill and Assault Weapons Ban or defending things like the DC handgun ban. This allowed the NRA to basically win the debate by using this as proof gun control doesn't work. The fact that there has been virtually no effect whatsoever on gun crime before and after the expiration of the AWB doesn't necessarily prove that a better worded less loophole filled law wouldn't have an effect on reducing gun crime, but because of that fact you now have plenty of people believing things like "Well I don't really like guns but I don't see the point in tightening the laws against them because doing so doesn't work in reducing crime." Similarly the reasons why DC couldn't simply couldn't ban handguns and expect it to work are quite obvious, but the fact that the gun control lobby pushed so hard against repeal of that and bothered to fight the court challenge kind of discredited them in the eyes of the swing voter, including many people who don't ever want to buy a handgun but would see banning the sale of them in their own state to be pretty silly.

Now I don't think anecdotes like this either are a good argument for gun control, but the fact that the gun control lobby has to resort to them instead of stats is telling. They can't defend the failure of basically every gun control law in the last two decades or that they've already cried wolf too many times (I remember Brady/Million Mom press releases before the expiration of the AWB about how if it was allowed to expire the streets would flow with blood and all that, doomsaying that was about as accurate as the Y2K doomsaying.) One could make a case that had more to do with them being bad laws, rather than all gun control laws being bad laws, but like it or not it's the reason the NRA won the debate and why the public isn't going to accept "more gun laws = less crime".
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 01:36:38 am by blood red X's for every 24 hours ive suffered through »Logged




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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 01:37:43 am »
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The biggest mistake the gun control lobby ever made was pushing for generally ineffective and not much more than symbolic legislation like the Brady Bill and Assault Weapons Ban or defending things like the DC handgun ban. This allowed the NRA to basically win the debate by using this as proof gun control doesn't work. The fact that there has been virtually no effect whatsoever on gun crime before and after the expiration of the AWB doesn't necessarily prove that a better worded less loophole filled law wouldn't have an effect on reducing gun crime, but because of that fact you now have plenty of people believing things like "Well I don't really like guns but I don't see the point in tightening the laws against them because doing so doesn't work in reducing crime." Similarly the reasons why DC couldn't simply couldn't ban handguns and expect it to work are quite obvious, but the fact that the gun control lobby pushed so hard against repeal of that and bothered to fight the court challenge kind of discredited them in the eyes of the swing voter, including many people who don't ever want to buy a handgun but would see banning the sale of them in their own state to be pretty silly.

Now I don't think anecdotes like this either are a good argument for gun control, but the fact that the gun control lobby has to resort to them instead of stats is telling. They can't defend the failure of basically every gun control law in the last two decades or that they've already cried wolf too many times (I remember Brady/Million Mom press releases before the expiration of the AWB about how if it was allowed to expire the streets would flow with blood and all that, doomsaying that was about as accurate as the Y2K doomsaying.) One could make a case that had more to do with them being bad laws, rather than all gun control laws being bad laws, but like it or not it's the reason the NRA won the debate and why the public isn't going to accept "more gun laws = less crime".

Well do you think that there could be gun laws that are designed better, and if so, how?

In any case, as I've said before, my point is posting these things is more because I dislike the arguments that the anti-gun control people come up when these stories are brought up than to push for any specific gun laws. Their arguments are faulty and radical. I'm not necessarily pushing for any particular law. I mostly just disagree with the notion that more people walking around with handguns = a safer, better society. I'd be fine simply with repeal of the Stand Your Ground laws (which aren't even about the right to keep and bear arms), the freezing of the status quo in terms of actual gun laws, and the reopening of federal funding for gun studies.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 01:42:31 am by Beet »Logged

dead0man
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 01:42:26 am »
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le sigh
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2012, 01:44:33 am »
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The biggest mistake the gun control lobby ever made was pushing for generally ineffective and not much more than symbolic legislation like the Brady Bill and Assault Weapons Ban or defending things like the DC handgun ban. This allowed the NRA to basically win the debate by using this as proof gun control doesn't work. The fact that there has been virtually no effect whatsoever on gun crime before and after the expiration of the AWB doesn't necessarily prove that a better worded less loophole filled law wouldn't have an effect on reducing gun crime, but because of that fact you now have plenty of people believing things like "Well I don't really like guns but I don't see the point in tightening the laws against them because doing so doesn't work in reducing crime." Similarly the reasons why DC couldn't simply couldn't ban handguns and expect it to work are quite obvious, but the fact that the gun control lobby pushed so hard against repeal of that and bothered to fight the court challenge kind of discredited them in the eyes of the swing voter, including many people who don't ever want to buy a handgun but would see banning the sale of them in their own state to be pretty silly.

Now I don't think anecdotes like this either are a good argument for gun control, but the fact that the gun control lobby has to resort to them instead of stats is telling. They can't defend the failure of basically every gun control law in the last two decades or that they've already cried wolf too many times (I remember Brady/Million Mom press releases before the expiration of the AWB about how if it was allowed to expire the streets would flow with blood and all that, doomsaying that was about as accurate as the Y2K doomsaying.) One could make a case that had more to do with them being bad laws, rather than all gun control laws being bad laws, but like it or not it's the reason the NRA won the debate and why the public isn't going to accept "more gun laws = less crime".

Well do you think that there could be gun laws that are designed better, and if so, how?

In the US? Probably not. The gun culture I find pretty ridiculous, but it can't be legislated out of existence. It'd be just as much a failure as the War on Drugs.

In any case, as I've said before, my point is posting these things is more because I dislike the arguments that the anti-gun control people come up when these stories are brought up than to push for any specific gun laws. Their arguments are faulty and radical. I'm not necessarily pushing for any particular law. I mostly just disagree with the notion that more people walking around with handguns = a safer, better society. I'd be fine simply with repeal of the Stand Your Ground laws (which aren't even about the right to keep and bear arms), the freezing of the status quo in terms of actual gun laws, and the reopening of federal funding for gun studies.

See if the gun control lobby actually pushed for things like that, rather thing things like reinstating the AWB, they might have more success.
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 01:51:32 am »
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In the US? Probably not. The gun culture I find pretty ridiculous, but it can't be legislated out of existence. It'd be just as much a failure as the War on Drugs.

Well okay then. You blame the gun control lobby for designing bad laws, but you admit that they wouldn't have been able to do better. But I agree that gun culture can't be legislated out of existence, and that it would be extremely foolish to try. The gun control lobby definitely overreached in the '90s.

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See if the gun control lobby actually pushed for things like that, rather thing things like reinstating the AWB, they might have more success.

Yeah, I guess the gun control lobby is too ideological and extreme in the other direction. I just don't notice them because they don't have any power except in big cities.
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 02:20:06 am »
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Actually if you look at Gallup's polling on this over time, something like a national handgun ban, assuming it could survive the courts, would've actually been plausible in the past, it had majority support in that supposed conservative dream era of the 50s and was around 50/50 as recently as the mid-70s, at the very least pre-Brady Bill they could've at least greatly tightened the standards for who is allowed to buy handguns (think of what Tender said you have to pass in Austria to get one) or at least staved the trend of states allowing concealed carry (which is actually a rather recent phenomena). I'm not saying such things would in fact reduce gun crime, but they aren't as obviously discredited as what was tried in the 90s.

But because of the failure of what was attempted, you now have to deal with a playing field where even suggesting banning private ownership of handguns is considered as fringe as abolishing public schools and a majority of Democrats in most state legislatures will vote for concealed carry laws.
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 02:24:49 am »
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California has tough gun laws, but Nevada's are really lax, so a lot of the criminals just buy their guns there.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/25/BAEO16M3TM.DTL
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 09:49:49 am »

In an NRA paradise the mother would have whipped out her own gun and shot the kidnapper and her accomplice dead before they got away.  Alas, the pediatric center probably trampled the mother's second amendment rights and would not let her carry a gun with her inside, thus leaving her vulnerable to this tragic murder/abduction.

That's the standard response. Except this happened outside. Since the shooting happened before the abduction, it would have to have been a Minority Report-style mind-reading operation. The problem with the idea of guns as defensive weapons is that they aren't. They're inherently offensive and designed to kill. If anyone can get shot just because they think someone else is about to shoot them, then it's open season on anyone, anywhere. After all, maybe the couple thought the mother was about to shoot the couple?

If guns are banned inside, the mother could hardly carry a gun from her car to the door, could she?  Also, the mother reportedly lived at least long enough to scream "my baby" and try to reach into the getaway car, so in the NRA paradise, while the mother would still be dead, she'd be able to do in the malfeasants before she died of her wounds.   

No, because she had already reached her car and she could have pulled a gun from it. Also, we don't know that she wasn't armed. Maybe she did have a concealed weapon but was too wounded to pull it out, aim and fire. Or maybe she just didn't see the point. Or maybe she was afraid she'd accidentally hit her baby, and chose to forego vengeance to reduce danger to her baby.

Anyway, in the fake NRA paradise, three people are dead, while in the actual NRA paradise, only one person is dead. I hardly see one the former is less horrific than the latter.

But in the NRA paradise, Charlton Heston gets to deliver a eulogy for the dead mother!
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My ballot:
Haley(R) Gov.
Sellers(D) Lt. Gov.
Hammond(R) Sec. of State
Diggs(D) Att. Gen.
Herbert(D) Comptroller Gen.
Spearman(R) Supt. of Education
DeFelice(American) Commissioner of Agriculture
Hutto(D/Working Families) US Sen (full)
Scott(R) US Sen (special)
Geddings(Labor) US House SC-2
Quinn(R) SC House District 69
TBD: Lex 1 School Board
Yes: Am. 1 (allow charity raffles)
No: Am. 2 (end election of the Adj. General)
No: Local Sales Tax
Yes: Temp Beer/Wine Permits
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 09:17:11 pm »
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http://montgomerycountypolicereporter.com/?p=43401

There is a video of a press conference by the DA and sheriff's department here.
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2012, 09:59:48 pm »
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Ahh, good to see that you didn't waste this tragedy to take the opportunity to be an anti-NRA hack.  Seriously?  Come on... that's pretty low.
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2012, 11:05:49 am »
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My other big issue with the gun control lobby and why I can't take them seriously is they don't seem to understand what they are proposing restricting. Take Carolyn McCarthy's "a shoulder thing that goes up" comment. It's amusing at first, but when you consider that she was sponsoring a bill to ban what she described as that, and then when you think about all the Congressmen talking about SOPA admitting they didn't really know what was in the bill but backed in anyway, and you can see why this is not a desirable or a minor thing.

For another example note that California has laws banning the sale of at least two models of firearms that do not exist. Now such bureaucratic errors are actually not uncommon (my favorite example being how the UN Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia indicted a fictitious character.), but it's clear such bills weren't being thought out and it was just a knee jerk "We hate guns!" sort of thing. Like we all know people proposing stronger restrictions on auto emissions and what not aren't as ignorant about cars. So the gun control lobby reduced themselves to a joke, and that's why I can't have much sympathy.
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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2012, 01:01:15 pm »
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Beet: 'dystopia' is the word to add to your arsenal for sh**t like this.
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2012, 01:34:40 pm »
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Ahh, good to see that you didn't waste this tragedy to take the opportunity to be an anti-NRA hack.  Seriously?  Come on... that's pretty low.

This is pretty much how I felt when I found out this was the actual subject of the thread.
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Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2012, 01:58:38 pm »
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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