Dutch general election - September 2012

[Iannis]

SP to get prime ministerial spot would have to compromise a lot. Their government would have to include PvdA, D66, CU and GL with a very weak majority.
Seeing from far, I think that VVD to lead a government with PvdA would need to replace Rutte to become acceptable. Maybe a Prime Minister Neelie Kroes.

I hope in a VVD-PVDA-CDA-D66 government actually

[Iannis]

Mmmmh

1st place D66, then VVD, then GL,  and NEderland Lokaal, who are Nederland Lokal?

[Iannis]

On the bright side, if the prognosis is correct, this is arguably also the best result for the broader left in Dutch electoral history ... that is to say, if you count both D66 and the party for the elderly, 50 Plus. You can justify the former, since D66 is traditionally considered on the center-left, though less so now than ever, not sure about the latter, though 50 Plus is Jan Nagel's brainchild.

PvdA + SP + D66 + GL + 50 Plus + PvdD = 76 seats.

The previous best result for the broader left was 1998, when PvdA + SP + D66 + GL got 75 seats.

This is of course of limited practical use, since D66 and the SP don't have much in common, but sociologically/historically interesting.

Quite arguable if 50plus can be labeled as "center-left". It's more populist

[Iannis]

When will actual results start coming up ?

As we speak. Wev'e already had Schiermonniksoog, Vlieland, and Rozendaal. The habitual early reporters.

One link to follow the results?

[Iannis]

I really can't trust an electorate that is capable of switching in three weeks from SP 35 PvdA 20 towards PvdA 40 SP 15 !! Even though they don't have first past the post where that could *at least* make sense, but friggin' proportional representation !! Why do nobody have something like a political culture nowadays ? Why don't anyone have some kind of political consistency ?

And also, why the f***ing hell would they vote for government moderate centerish rubbish parties that will keep doing the exact f***ing same thing that put them all in deep sh!t in the first place ?

It's official, I now resume hating the Dutch voters.

The only two _good_ news I can think of are the collapse of PVV, but I do not get it either, but it feels good of course, and the PvdD keeping their 2 seats, cause I'm kind of a vegetarian.

Oh, AND one last thing : nobody calls left-wing a party that is ready to govern with the right, whatever its motives on bloody debt reduction or sh!t may be : you govern with the right, except maybe in time of war or invasion, you're center, so you're right-wing. Period. PvdA is right-wing, SPD is, SPÖ is.

Don't you think that maybe the crazy attitude was when so many people declared to vote SP and not now? because historically PVDA has always had more votes than SP, so they have just gone back to their usual attitude. And probably dutch socialdemocrats are simply more keen to find a compromise with VVD on remaining in a stable pro-Europe pattern than trying some euroskeptic experiment, like they did in the past (Kok government, which was also a positive period for economy)

[Iannis]

I really can't trust an electorate that is capable of switching in three weeks from SP 35 PvdA 20 towards PvdA 40 SP 15 !! Even though they don't have first past the post where that could *at least* make sense, but friggin' proportional representation !! Why do nobody have something like a political culture nowadays ? Why don't anyone have some kind of political consistency ?

And also, why the f***ing hell would they vote for government moderate centerish rubbish parties that will keep doing the exact f***ing same thing that put them all in deep sh!t in the first place ?

It's official, I now resume hating the Dutch voters.

The only two _good_ news I can think of are the collapse of PVV, but I do not get it either, but it feels good of course, and the PvdD keeping their 2 seats, cause I'm kind of a vegetarian.

Oh, AND one last thing : nobody calls left-wing a party that is ready to govern with the right, whatever its motives on bloody debt reduction or sh!t may be : you govern with the right, except maybe in time of war or invasion, you're center, so you're right-wing. Period. PvdA is right-wing, SPD is, SPÖ is.

Don't you think that maybe the crazy attitude was when so many people declared to vote SP and not now? because historically PVDA has always had more votes than SP, so they have just gone back to their usual attitude. And probably dutch socialdemocrats are simply more keen to find a compromise with VVD on remaining in a stable pro-Europe pattern than trying some euroskeptic experiment, like they did in the past (Kok government, which was also a positive period for economy)

At one point it looked like SP might become the largest party. But during the campaign it seemed that the more people saw of Roemer, the less they trusted him. He just did not make much of an impression during the debates.

Sort of Melenchon-like flop, I'm not unhappy about that, I'm just quite sad for CDA but satisfied for VVD

[Iannis]

you're center, so you're right-wing. Period.

Mm. I share your bitterness about all the floating voters rushing back from their SP preference to the Labour mothership because they happen to have a smart-sounding leader again ... but this makes no sense to me. If you're center, you're center. Right-wingers are right-wingers, centrists are centrists, left-wingers are left-wingers.

You can argue that the PvdA is more a centrist party than a left-wing party, but there's no automatic way in which everyone who is centrist magically therefore is, *really*, right-wing.

Only way I see that work is if you'd go with a kind of "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality, where everyone who is not actively on your side is ipse facto a guilty member of the opposite side, but that kind of logic (made famous by creepy leaders from Lenin to George W. Bush) strikes me as a bit disturbing.

Again, I've been a bit too much bitter. But here in France we have a long tradition of considering there is no *real* center, and that the center is a part of the right. You should see what it provoked when some socialists proposed to govern with even the very very moderate-center Modem.

But you're a bit right : being left-wing _is_ "with us or against us" in a way. Either you support the workers that make the wealth, either you support the bosses that steal it from them. It's very very basically said, it has become much more sophisticated than that, but in times of crisis as now, it kind of grows back.

So I'll maintain PvdA is not a left-wing party anymore if they are willing to govern with VVD, but that doesn't mean SP or GL may not try to work with them punctually at a local level. It's not the same thing.

In France there is a totally innatural electoral system that forces to vote or right or left but human nature is not like this, it's more complex and dutch system is rightly designed to recognized it.