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Author Topic: This is ridiculous  (Read 3624 times)
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2012, 01:41:19 pm »
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Calling Mitt Romney a racist because of an outdated and isolated view of Mormon Scripture with no real evidence to back up the claim is...yeah, it's pretty clearly a personal attack, the same way as the occasional "Barack Obama hates white people" stuff is.

Why can't we personally attack Mitt Romney?

Calling all Mormons racist isn't necessarily an attack on Mitt Romney, first and foremost. Moreso to the 14 million people worldwide who identify as Mormons.
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2012, 02:33:34 pm »
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No one called all Mormons racist.
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2012, 03:34:33 pm »
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Calling Mitt Romney a racist because of an outdated and isolated view of Mormon Scripture with no real evidence to back up the claim is...yeah, it's pretty clearly a personal attack, the same way as the occasional "Barack Obama hates white people" stuff is.

Why can't we personally attack Mitt Romney?

Calling all Mormons racist isn't necessarily an attack on Mitt Romney, first and foremost. Moreso to the 14 million people worldwide who identify as Mormons.

Not all Mormons identified as such when Mormonism was clearly a racist religion, but Mittens did.
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2012, 03:37:29 pm »
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He was 31 when God changed His mind about black people. Would be pretty entertaining to see it brought up sometime later in the campaign.

In the Mormon religion, god likes to do sudden 180s sometimes.
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 08:24:47 am »
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Calling Mitt Romney a racist because of an outdated and isolated view of Mormon Scripture with no real evidence to back up the claim is...yeah, it's pretty clearly a personal attack, the same way as the occasional "Barack Obama hates white people" stuff is.

Why can't we personally attack Mitt Romney?

Calling all Mormons racist isn't necessarily an attack on Mitt Romney, first and foremost. Moreso to the 14 million people worldwide who identify as Mormons.

Not all Mormons identified as such when Mormonism was clearly a racist religion, but Mittens did.

So did his father, who for the record STRONGLY supported the Civil Rights Movement while Mormonism was still a "racist religion".

But yes, making wide assumptions about a person's personal belief structure is so fun, isn't it?

Anyway, whether or not I agree with Lief's post I don't think it's fair that it got deleted.  Then again, I don't think infractions are fair to begin with.  If there is one thing I give this episode credit for is showing a lot of naive people that political correctness isn't simply a made up word for closet racists.  It is very real and it can affect non-racist left wingers just as much, if not more (as in the case of legitimate criticisms of organized religion) than right wingers.

Also, I would like to point out that, at least in Christiany religious sects, it's not at all uncommon to find scary views.  Hell, the Bible is no stranger to them.  See Exodus 21:7-10, which pretty much says it's alright for an adult man to sleep with a young girl (no age specified) if he buys her from her father.
Go to a church and try to argue that it's okay today and they'll report you to Chris Hansen.

Times change, and so do religious perceptions.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:18:39 am by Hard Ons About Warren »Logged



23:19   Xahar   you're literally a white dude Mechaman
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 03:33:08 pm »
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Just because the religion's leaders say something doesn't mean that people who are that religion believe it. For example, I'm sure that Lief would be attacking Mo Udall in 1976 for being a Mormon, when he was actually very anti-racism. As was George Romney. I'm pretty sure that most American Catholics don't have a problem with using birth control, despite what the Catholic Church says. It's like attacking Obama for Jeremiah Wright.
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2012, 05:02:01 pm »
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x opebo

It is hilarious that on a political forum we are now not allowed to criticize politicians.
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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2012, 04:14:24 am »
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Well, I got three points and my post deleted for calling Romney a "non-Christian racist".
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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2012, 06:43:45 am »
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It was me!! I was the turkey all along!!!!!!!

 Unfortunetly, I'm not well versed in the book of Mormon or anything..also, I can't give you back those points. But, if you'd like I can give you store credit on something. Or you could PM me and we can discuss it. Whatevs you want.
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My parents are pretty good about smelling a rat. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2012, 11:10:54 am »
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It was me!! I was the turkey all along!!!!!!!

 Unfortunetly, I'm not well versed in the book of Mormon or anything..also, I can't give you back those points. But, if you'd like I can give you store credit on something. Or you could PM me and we can discuss it. Whatevs you want.

I like this.  Eraserhead has a get-out-of-jail-free card for a three-point level infract post.  reminds me of when I was in high school and I posed a plan to the disciplinary dean that would allow students to attend morning detention before actually being sentenced to it, thus allowing the student to cut class, minor hooliganism, etc.  against the collateral of the time served.
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« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2012, 11:42:31 am »
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Congrats, Andrew! You made your first controversy as a mod! Grin

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« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2012, 12:47:49 pm »
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Congrats, Andrew! You made your first controversy as a mod! Grin



Thanks. I was hoping it was going to be something a bit more scandalous, but I guess I'll take what I can get Sad
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My parents are pretty good about smelling a rat. 
Let me put this as clear as I can (saying this to myself, as well, so I can see it): I WILL get a job with CADD and I WILL keep the job.
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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2012, 01:44:42 pm »
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Congrats, Andrew! You made your first controversy as a mod! Grin



Thanks. I was hoping it was going to be something a bit more scandalous, but I guess I'll take what I can get Sad

Come on, dude, you're just starting!
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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2012, 02:01:21 pm »
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It was me!! I was the turkey all along!!!!!!!

 Unfortunetly, I'm not well versed in the book of Mormon or anything..also, I can't give you back those points. But, if you'd like I can give you store credit on something. Or you could PM me and we can discuss it. Whatevs you want.

Why can't you just remove the points?
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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2012, 02:25:43 pm »
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^^
Thanks, Pal!


^Because my word is my bond.. unless people started a petition. At that point, I'd probably notice it. LOL, J/K. If people went onto facebook and started a page and it got enough likes, I might be able to pull some strings with the big mod daddy.
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My parents are pretty good about smelling a rat. 
Let me put this as clear as I can (saying this to myself, as well, so I can see it): I WILL get a job with CADD and I WILL keep the job.
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« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2012, 11:21:21 pm »
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^^
Thanks, Pal!


^Because my word is my bond.. unless people started a petition. At that point, I'd probably notice it. LOL, J/K. If people went onto facebook and started a page and it got enough likes, I might be able to pull some strings with the big mod daddy.

I mean... you do realize that it's possible to undo an infraction, right?  You don't have to give a "credit".
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2012, 06:22:06 am »
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Yup
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My parents are pretty good about smelling a rat. 
Let me put this as clear as I can (saying this to myself, as well, so I can see it): I WILL get a job with CADD and I WILL keep the job.
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2012, 10:51:12 am »
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So here we have mods admitting they shouldn't have given infraction points but refuse to revoke them for no logical reason at all. Yes it's so nice that this system works so well and is being taken seriously by those responsible for it. Roll Eyes

This just proves how the whole thing is a total joke.
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2012, 11:07:09 am »
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^^
Thanks, Pal!


^Because my word is my bond.. unless people started a petition. At that point, I'd probably notice it. LOL, J/K. If people went onto facebook and started a page and it got enough likes, I might be able to pull some strings with the big mod daddy.

I mean... you do realize that it's possible to undo an infraction, right?  You don't have to give a "credit".

He has absolute power to do whatever he likes, Inks.  You of all people should be celebrating this.  Or is your argument like when Schindler explained about magnanimity to Amon Goeth?
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2012, 02:15:39 pm »
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There are some conflicting things in this thread, and I figured I throw my thoughts in as well. There are a number of infraction categories, at least two of which have been mentioned so far: personal attack and discrimination/hatefulness. The infraction was for the latter of those two, so to avoid confusion in my post I'll deal first with the former.

I treat personal attacks as being those directed at another poster. Attacks on political figures or others in the news may get moderated for other reasons, but I would shy away from calling that a personal attack. Public figures are subject to ridicule within reason, but for a well-run forum ridicule should be constrained among posters.

A statement directed at a public figure can cross the line into discrimination. The more public the figure the more cutting a comment can be and probably not cross that line. Statements that accuse a policy of racism are fairly ordinary and can be worthy of debate. An accusation that a person is racist based on a set of policies goes a step further, but can be defended. For me the line usually appears when a public figure is attacked not for their policies or actions but merely by being a member of a group. By saying that X is a member of group G and is therefore racist implies that the syllogism's premise was that all G are racist. In context that can be discriminatory and subject to moderation IMO.
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2012, 04:31:51 pm »
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So here we have mods admitting they shouldn't have given infraction points but refuse to revoke them for no logical reason at all. Yes it's so nice that this system works so well and is being taken seriously by those responsible for it. Roll Eyes

This just proves how the whole thing is a total joke.

I don't even have words for it at this point. How do you responsibly criticize a system when the moderator in question is openly acting like a goofy idiot, as if doing something completely ridiculous and unjustifiable with a smile then makes it okay.

Not all decisions need an explanation. A very small minority of them do, in fact. But of decisions that do need some sort of walk-through on how the decision was made, a serious effort should actually be made to do so. It's not that much to ask for at all.

I appreciate muon's contribution above, and he's right. Raising the question of mormonism being racist is one thing. Arguing that it is is one thing. Snidely saying all mormons are racist in short comments in multiple threads, that's absolutely another and that should be infracted. But Lief's original issue in this thread was not about calling mormonism racist and then trotting on to another thread. He called the book of mormon racist and stated that he could understand why people would say that mormons are racist, considering what's in the Book of Mormon. That's not "hateful" and should almost certainly not be infractable.

Moreover I don't understand the weirdly random and arbitrary nature of this entire "anti-anti-mormon" crusade. But that's best left for another day. The only thing that's pissing me off here is what I once said in another thread on this particular board a long time ago. Moderators have become so used to bad criticism, that when they get asked important questions, the only thing they can do is respond as if it's trolling even when it's not.

I'm not trying to change the world here, I'm not crying foul over the whole system, I'm not screaming fascism, starting petitions, and demanding half of the Mod Squad's resignation. But a little explanation and a little consistency. That'd be good.
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2012, 05:06:58 pm »
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^^
Thanks, Pal!


^Because my word is my bond.. unless people started a petition. At that point, I'd probably notice it. LOL, J/K. If people went onto facebook and started a page and it got enough likes, I might be able to pull some strings with the big mod daddy.

I mean... you do realize that it's possible to undo an infraction, right?  You don't have to give a "credit".

He has absolute power to do whatever he likes, Inks.  You of all people should be celebrating this.  Or is your argument like when Schindler explained about magnanimity to Amon Goeth?

how did this get past the filter?
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2012, 08:55:13 pm »
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So here we have mods admitting they shouldn't have given infraction points but refuse to revoke them for no logical reason at all. Yes it's so nice that this system works so well and is being taken seriously by those responsible for it. Roll Eyes

This just proves how the whole thing is a total joke.

I never said that I shouldn't have given the infraction points, and I never said I wouldn't take them off.
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My parents are pretty good about smelling a rat. 
Let me put this as clear as I can (saying this to myself, as well, so I can see it): I WILL get a job with CADD and I WILL keep the job.
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« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2012, 12:13:24 am »
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...but for a well-run forum ridicule should be constrained among posters.

So a 'well run forum' is one in which only a narrow range of opinion is allowed.
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« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2012, 02:14:06 am »
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...but for a well-run forum ridicule should be constrained among posters.

So a 'well run forum' is one in which only a narrow range of opinion is allowed.

When it comes to posters ridiculing other posters, yes. A forum that becomes dominated by flame wars is not successful IMO. As my post stated, ridicule of public figures is fair game. That should provide quite a wide range of opinion.
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