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Eraserhead
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« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2012, 05:24:43 am »
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Well, my criticism of a public official wasn't deemed "fair game".

Whatever, at this point I don't really care. I'll just say what I want and you people can sprinkle some points on it if you want. The entire system is a farce and has been since the beginning.
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truth serum
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« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2012, 09:34:42 am »
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x opebo

It is hilarious that on a political forum we are now not allowed to criticize politicians.

xGrumps
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In one thread -

« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:45:57 pm by True Federalist »

« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:43:45 pm by True Federalist »

« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:41:31 pm by True Federalist »

-------------------------

Good call on the edit, Ernest.  We don't want the jailed mass murderer to call Dave on copyright infringement.
Bacon King
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2012, 02:26:15 am »
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Allow me to note, as a representative of the 2012 Board Mod Triumvirate, that my two co-mods and I have reached a decision on this matter; Lief's two death points have been removed.

There are rarely solid rules existing that govern whether a potentially-questionable comment is infractable or not. Different moderators often have different interpretations of whether something is acceptable or not. For what it's worth, here's my two cents:

  • Personal attacks are against fellow posters, not public figures
  • However, making attacks against public figures like saying, "Romney is a Nazi," is potentially infractable as excessive hyperbole (or trolling, in certain contexts), unless the post contains a reasonable attempt to justify the statement to the point that it isn't hyperbolic.
  • On the same token, attacking a public figure by saying something like, "Romney will be a better President because Obama is a black, and black people are lazy," is infractable as "discrimination/hatefulness" because it's making an argument through bigotry alone.

Regarding Romney's Mormonism and discussions of it on the 2012 board, that's certainly an area where my understanding of that last point become somewhat muddled. Honestly, if you want to discuss the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we have a philosophy/religion board where you can argue about it all you want (sorry Gustaf). As far as Romney's affiliation with it, however, I really don't know where the line is. I've usually let Morden or Andrew take those infractions because most of the time I have no idea how to judge them. I suppose the approach here should be pretty nuanced; saying with certainty that "Romney is a racist because he's a Mormon and the Book of Mormon says this" wouldn't be acceptable, certainly. Lief's insinuations in the OP represent probably the acceptable limit, and even then only if it's germane to the topic being discussed.

But yeah, just my two cents. Hope everyone can be more tactful with this sort of stuff in the future (probably not).
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Torie
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2012, 11:14:12 am »
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Someone who posts that Mittens is racist based solely on the alleged tenets or former tenets of the LDS, just reveals that the poster as a fool really, and in some sense, that is worse than getting infraction points in my book. If that same poster however posts the same thing ad nauseum, that to me is a form of infractible "trolling" and spamming. And there is some value in an interaction where a poster posts such nonsense, and then is knocked down for it based on the merits, rather than it just floating out there as some unspoken consideration. After all, that attitude is out there.  That is my two cents.
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2012, 01:12:11 pm »
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Someone who posts that Mittens is racist based solely on the alleged tenets or former tenets of the LDS, just reveals that the poster as a fool really, and in some sense, that is worse than getting infraction points in my book.

the legitimacy of LDS is linked to the legitimacy of Joseph Smith, such that if Joseph Smith's statements prove him to be a clown, then the LDS is full of clowns.

is that not a fair statement?
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2012, 01:30:13 pm »
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Someone who posts that Mittens is racist based solely on the alleged tenets or former tenets of the LDS, just reveals that the poster as a fool really, and in some sense, that is worse than getting infraction points in my book.

the legitimacy of LDS is linked to the legitimacy of Joseph Smith, such that if Joseph Smith's statements prove him to be a clown, then the LDS is full of clowns.

is that not a fair statement?

No, that is guilt by association. Folks associated with some outfit rarely believe everything the outfit subscribes to anyway.  Moving right along, sure Smith made improbable claims, but then so did Christ, or what the authors of the Bible claimed that Christ did anyway. It's just that the latter has more vintage to it, and the paper trail is murkier and more mysterious. Different leaps for different leapers.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2012, 02:11:51 pm »
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Someone who posts that Mittens is racist based solely on the alleged tenets or former tenets of the LDS, just reveals that the poster as a fool really, and in some sense, that is worse than getting infraction points in my book.

the legitimacy of LDS is linked to the legitimacy of Joseph Smith, such that if Joseph Smith's statements prove him to be a clown, then the LDS is full of clowns.

is that not a fair statement?

No, that is guilt by association. Folks associated with some outfit rarely believe everything the outfit subscribes to anyway.  Moving right along, sure Smith made improbable claims, but then so did Christ, or what the authors of the Bible claimed that Christ did anyway. It's just that the latter has more vintage to it, and the paper trail is murkier and more mysterious. Different leaps for different leapers.

Your logic jumps off track when it comes to religion, so let me walk you through these simple steps:

From my POV, the legitimacy of Christianity is linked to the legitimacy of Jesus Christ and the Apostles, such that if Jesus Christ and the Apostles statements prove them to be clowns, then Christianity is full of clowns.

Likewise, again from my POV, the legitimacy of LDS is linked to the legitimacy of Joseph Smith (since he claims to the instrument God used to “reestablish the true church”), such that if Joseph Smith's statements prove him to be a clown, then the LDS is full of clowns.

The logic of my POV is objective and consistence.  It plays no favorites and it allows the chips to fall where they may.
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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A band of angels coming after me,
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Swing low, sweet chariot,
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Torie
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2012, 02:14:55 pm »
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Putting aside the guilt by association thing, to which I take exception, given your POV, your logic appears flawless to me.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2012, 02:32:51 pm »
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Putting aside the guilt by association thing, to which I take exception

isn't so much a matter of "guilt" as it is "error"...since Smith claimed to be reestablishing the dormant true church, as long as the LDS church claims to be the one true church, the legitimacy of LDS is linked to the legitimacy of Joseph Smith.

and that's not me being anti-Mormon, for "Smith" and "LDS" can be exchanged in the above statement for any church founder and church that claims to have the sole truth.

--

given your POV, your logic appears flawless to me.

well, that logic holds true with or without my POV...for if Jesus claimed to have embodied all truth, then, obviously, the legitimate of Christianity hinges upon the legitimacy of Jesus.  Same goes for Mohammad and Islam.

Why is that not obvious?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Torie
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2012, 03:08:05 pm »
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This is the wrong place for a heavy duty religious discussion jmfcst, and as one who is Godless, yes of course I question many of the claims made about Jesus.  As to whether or not he was personally a charlatan, or while sincere himself, was marketed by charlatans, I have no idea. Just my POV of course.

Anyway, we need to move on here.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2012, 03:11:24 pm »
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I haven't really read through this thread, but judging by the last few posts it now belongs in the R&P board.  As do most threads involving jmfcst.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2012, 03:21:38 pm »
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This is the wrong place for a heavy duty religious discussion jmfcst, and as one who is Godless, yes of course I question many of the claims made about Jesus.  As to whether or not he was personally a charlatan, or while sincere himself, was marketed by charlatans, I have no idea. Just my POV of course.

Anyway, we need to move on here.


dang dude, we are NOT discussing the results of any test of truth, rather we're discussing the validity of having a test to begin with...as if you not only don't want to dicsuss the results of the test, you don't accept anything as testable.

why does the statement "the legitimacy of A is linked to the legitimacy of B" bother you so much?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Torie
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2012, 04:05:51 pm »
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Yes jmfcst, if an outfit is the embodiment of truth, then there is not much potential in trying to tar someone by being associated with it. If it is not, then we get into the guilt by association discussion. Just because an outfit has some warts to it, does not mean one associated with it necessarily does as well ipso facto, res ipse loquitur. The end.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2012, 04:16:44 pm »
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Yes jmfcst, if an outfit is the embodiment of truth, then there is not much potential in trying to tar someone by being associated with it. If it is not, then we get into the guilt by association discussion. Just because an outfit has some warts to it, does not mean one associated with it necessarily does as well ipso facto, res ipse loquitur. The end.

why not?  if Romney were a member of Scientology or the Branch Davidians, would you be so hesitant to call him crazy?  why is it ok to point out the error of members of a small group but not members of a larger group?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 04:20:56 pm by consigliere jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Torie
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2012, 04:48:21 pm »
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Matter of degree I guess. I mean, if a guy were a member of the Nazi SS, I suppose we are getting close to if not actually in, res ipsa loquitur territory. It's a judgment call. And part of that judgment is that some outfits are arguably just plain evil, ala Scientology. The LDS is not in that category. That's my judgment.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2012, 06:27:09 pm »
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would like to take the moment to congratulate Lief and the Community at-large.
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« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2012, 12:18:49 am »
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Matter of degree I guess. I mean, if a guy were a member of the Nazi SS, I suppose we are getting close to if not actually in, res ipsa loquitur territory. It's a judgment call. And part of that judgment is that some outfits are arguably just plain evil, ala Scientology. The LDS is not in that category. That's my judgment.

The point is your judgement doesn't enter into it.  We are not allowed to judge anything here - it is judged for us by the moderators.  We only parrot.  LDS may not be questioned, Romney's sanity or racism may not be questioned.
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« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2012, 09:37:43 am »
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Someone who posts that Mittens is racist based solely on the alleged tenets or former tenets of the LDS, just reveals that the poster as a fool really, and in some sense, that is worse than getting infraction points in my book.

the legitimacy of LDS is linked to the legitimacy of Joseph Smith, such that if Joseph Smith's statements prove him to be a clown, then the LDS is full of clowns.

is that not a fair statement?

No, that is guilt by association. Folks associated with some outfit rarely believe everything the outfit subscribes to anyway.  Moving right along, sure Smith made improbable claims, but then so did Christ, or what the authors of the Bible claimed that Christ did anyway. It's just that the latter has more vintage to it, and the paper trail is murkier and more mysterious. Different leaps for different leapers.

How many Mormons have you met, Torie? Any Mormon who is even somewhat devout will not admit to disagreeing with any portion of the Book of Mormon, it's their one unifying factor: the total lack of dissent emanating from followers of the religion. You either believe or you don't in their eyes.
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« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2012, 09:40:12 am »
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I, for one, fully support any crusade against Mormonism because it is a disgusting cult that openly lies about major historical facts to its followers and tries to quash dissent and reasonable debate. I expect to receive infraction points for saying this even though the Mods in questions have never met a Mormon while some of my best friends are Mormon and I constantly interact with their families. I'm just speaking from personal experience here: the religion sucks and makes me queasy in a way that Christianity never did.
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« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2012, 10:06:50 am »
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The few LDS folks with whom I interact, or have interacted, are upper middle class, and we just don't discuss religion. It's not polite, and it would be even less polite to probe into whether they really believe this or that about their religion. They do get some ribbing for belonging to "the cult" and take it with good nature, and laugh. I had a lawsuit where the other side was represented by the nephew of Senator Crapo, and he was a pleasure to deal with - unusual in the litigation world. I try to interact with folks as individuals, as opposed to filtering them based on their background or beliefs or whatever. Humans are just a lot more complex than that. I find my interactions to be just so much richer and more interesting that way.

Yes, the LDS does have some cult-like tendencies, but I don't consider them evil. Sure they have strange beliefs, but for skeptics, most of these leaps of faith in any religion embracing the supernatural and miracles and so forth are kind of bizarre. You reflect however an animus towards the LDS that is fairly widespread. It would be nice if we had a bit more tolerance, and more of a live, and let live, attitude, rather than just demonizing the other. Among other things, in my experience, it makes one a happier person. We all have our own little unique journeys in life, and our own constraints, and inherited support groups and the like.
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« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2012, 10:31:31 am »
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Someone who posts that Mittens is racist based solely on the alleged tenets or former tenets of the LDS, just reveals that the poster as a fool really, and in some sense, that is worse than getting infraction points in my book.

the legitimacy of LDS is linked to the legitimacy of Joseph Smith, such that if Joseph Smith's statements prove him to be a clown, then the LDS is full of clowns.

is that not a fair statement?

Well then my friend, what is the legitimacy of the Bible?  Don't pull any of that "God wrote it!" BS because we all know that what is written in the Bible is from a bunch of Hebrew guys and Greek writers transcribed from what was passed down onto them.

So given that, would it be fair for me to call Christians clowns because their holy text, their Holy Grail of a Bible includes passages that glorify heterosexual pedophilia and concubines (and don't even get me started on the glorified genocides)?  Because those are there so STFU with your double standard of calling LDS clowns when your own Bible is chockfull of ridiculousness.
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« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2012, 10:45:48 am »
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EMD remInds me of the ex-Catholics in my family, or Mikado on religious Judaism. A case where having more of an interaction with something makes one more opposed to it.
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« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2012, 11:26:50 am »
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Just to clarify my position on the matter of attacks on Mormonism (or any religious or ideological belief, for that matter):

Rational, reasoned arguments about the merits, or lack thereof, of a belief system are strongly encouraged.

Sweeping generalizations about the sanity or character of those who ascribe to a belief system, especially if made alone with no supporting evidence, do not contribute to intellectual discourse and are infractable.
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« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2012, 11:33:23 am »
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EMD remInds me of the ex-Catholics in my family, or Mikado on religious Judaism. A case where having more of an interaction with something makes one more opposed to it.

Mikado is a lapsed Jew?
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Torie
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« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2012, 11:35:41 am »
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EMD remInds me of the ex-Catholics in my family, or Mikado on religious Judaism. A case where having more of an interaction with something makes one more opposed to it.

Mikado is a lapsed Jew?

That is what he has posted, yes.
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