Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 17, 2014, 01:53:13 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  Election Archive
| |-+  2012 Elections (Moderators: Mr. Morden, Bacon King, Sheriff Buford TX Justice)
| | |-+  Romney: I'll take a lot of credit for auto industry success.
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print
Author Topic: Romney: I'll take a lot of credit for auto industry success.  (Read 1722 times)
Less-Progressivism, More Realism
Progressive Realist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5345
United States


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2012, 10:32:21 am »
Ignore

He'll take a lot of credit for Obama's win in November (as he should Smiley ).
Logged

Ready 4 Reform.
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26572
United States


View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2012, 01:00:02 pm »
Ignore

The Midwest is shrinking and at some point California, Texas and Florida would grow weary of propping up a perpetually insolvent institution either as a nationalized entity or a constantly bailed out private firm. Plus, no mainstream political figures were willing to tolerate nationalization.
We should be implementing policy that punishes industries in those states, we don't need to be incentivizing people to move to sh**thole climates. Appalachia, Mountain West/Pacific West should be propped up instead.

I'd much rather put up with a little heat and humidity if it means I don't have to worry about snow that often.  We have been propping up Appalachia for decades now.  While it would only be a smidgen of savings, the Appalachian Regional Commission should be eliminated. (As well as the copycat Delta Regional Authority.)
Logged

Daily Reflections on the Revised Common Lectionary

Bible thumping kept to a minimum unless you go to sleep!
The below comic stars me!
Ogre Mage
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.00, S: -4.35

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2012, 07:01:14 pm »
Ignore

lol.  Romney is playing into the worst stereotypes about himself.
Logged
AmericanNation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 945


Political Matrix
E: 4.90, S: 1.91

View Profile
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2012, 07:19:39 pm »
Ignore

lol.  Romney is playing into the worst stereotypes about himself.
Competent?  Technocratic?  Wonkish?  Smart?  Problem Solver?  You're right, terrible stereotypes.       
Logged



Ogre Mage
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.00, S: -4.35

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2012, 07:26:45 pm »
Ignore

lol.  Romney is playing into the worst stereotypes about himself.
Competent?  Technocratic?  Wonkish?  Smart?  Problem Solver?  You're right, terrible stereotypes.       

lol, "Etch A Sketch" is the stereotype I was referring to.
Logged
AmericanNation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 945


Political Matrix
E: 4.90, S: 1.91

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2012, 07:36:50 pm »
Ignore

lol.  Romney is playing into the worst stereotypes about himself.
Competent?  Technocratic?  Wonkish?  Smart?  Problem Solver?  You're right, terrible stereotypes.       

lol, "Etch A Sketch" is the stereotype I was referring to.

You're right, staying completely consistent throughout the entire time frame is so "Etch A Sketch."  Wait, that is a completely wrong characterization that requires you to perpetuate ignorance in order to make any sense.     
Logged



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2012, 07:52:34 pm »
Ignore

What exactly is a change here from before? It is completely consistent with both his book and the 2008 article itself, which seems more and more that so many have conveniently declined to read.

Romney has always credited the managed bankruptcy for turning around the companies (Which is common sense. Changing business plans is the only way one saves a company from liquidation forced by insolvency when absent exterior mitigating circumstances.) and since he was the first to call for such a thing, it isn't that much of an "etch a sketch" moment to want to take credit for that.

Granted, it may play into the "arrogant, self absorbed, out of touch" labels, but it is what we would call a "high risk-high reward investment".
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Ogre Mage
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.00, S: -4.35

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2012, 08:05:12 pm »
Ignore

If that is y'all's grasp of reality with regards to the staunch opposition to the auto bailout that Romney put in writing, I'm not going to argue with it.  We'll see what Michigan voters think about it come November 2012.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html
Logged
AmericanNation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 945


Political Matrix
E: 4.90, S: 1.91

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2012, 08:09:45 pm »
Ignore

If that is y'all's grasp of reality with regards to the staunch opposition to the auto bailout that Romney put in writing, I'm not going to argue with it.  We'll see what Michigan voters think about it come November 2012.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html

"grasp of reality" LOL.  Romney Opposed what Obama/Bush did because his plan was much better... reality tells us Romney was right.  Typically you take credit for being right.     
Logged



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2012, 08:46:57 pm »
Ignore

If that is y'all's grasp of reality with regards to the staunch opposition to the auto bailout that Romney put in writing, I'm not going to argue with it.  We'll see what Michigan voters think about it come November 2012.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html

We clearly aren't reading the English language the same way then. I have read that article 10 times. I would claim that my understanding of it is better then yours and if Michigan is far worse then the numbers should indicate it is because Obama successfully utilized voter ignorance for political gain. What a surprise that such a polished politician is so effective at misleading people. Roll Eyes
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2012, 08:56:04 pm »
Ignore

What Romney was rejecting:
Quote
IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Amounted to a no strings attached blank check for screwing up. It is very "too big to fail" based, moral-hazard encouraging, misguided approach that was taken with the banks.

What Romney called for:
Quote
First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

Such a plan could have been drawn up over a weekend by a bunch of staffers working 24/7 and would be ready by Monday to present to a judge.

Quote
Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

OH NO, He wants to fire the guys that failed, what a nightmare!!! And heaven forbid that a more cooperative atmosphere exists between management and labor. I would have thought you guys would applaud this, but since it is from a 1%er it must be rejected.
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2012, 09:00:23 pm »
Ignore

Third: Long-term approach:
Quote
Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

So you guys prefer that they focus on quarterly profits first?

Fourth: Gov't supported research
Quote
It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

Fifth: Gov't Supported Restructuring (Post bankruptch bailout)
Quote
The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



AmericanNation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 945


Political Matrix
E: 4.90, S: 1.91

View Profile
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2012, 09:01:27 pm »
Ignore

...And then GM and Chrysler failed after the bailout and went through a bankruptcy restructuring.  Mitt was right about everything, apparently a huge political liability.  
Logged



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2012, 09:02:15 pm »
Ignore

What the hell is wrong with any of that?
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2012, 09:04:05 pm »
Ignore

If I was Romney, I would be distributing that damn article to everyone in Ohio and Michigan free of charge.
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2012, 09:19:31 pm »
Ignore

Quote
The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing...


I interpret this to mean two things:

1) Literally, the gov't should provide federal backing to anyone willing to offer private loans to finance an auto restructuring.

2) Implied that should that fail to garner enough capital, other measures would be placed on the table such as direct loans.

Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Ogre Mage
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.00, S: -4.35

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2012, 10:52:42 pm »
Ignore

lol, Romney is now trying to take credit for a (federally funded) auto bailout which he previously vociferously opposed, calling it "crony capitalism on a grand scale."  There is no evidence he worked on the bailout beyond his op-eds.  He wanted the auto industry to find private financing and if you think it would have materialized (especially given the frozen credit environment at the time) I have a bridge to nowhere I'd like to sell you.  Perhaps the reason Michigan voters will not buy his sudden credit-taking is because they realize it makes no sense.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 11:00:53 pm by Ogre Mage »Logged
Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2012, 11:48:45 pm »
Ignore

lol, Romney is now trying to take credit for a (federally funded) auto bailout which he previously vociferously opposed, calling it "crony capitalism on a grand scale."  There is no evidence he worked on the bailout beyond his op-eds.  He wanted the auto industry to find private financing and if you think it would have materialized (especially given the frozen credit environment at the time) I have a bridge to nowhere I'd like to sell you.  Perhaps the reason Michigan voters will not buy his sudden credit-taking is because they realize it makes no sense.

What doesn't make sense is your post, which is badly clipped together collection of terribly designed talking points. Respond to my analysis of the Op-ed (the very one you peddled as a smoking gun) or cede the argument.

He wanted the Gov't to back the loans first off, second he never ruled out (Post-Bankruptcy) direct gov't loans should no one take up the offer of 100% gov't backing. He just declined to mention that for the sake of the tea party. He did rule out any gov't aide to support a failing model (the Bush-Obama, "Pre/No Bankruptcy" Bailout) whether it be backing of private loans or direct gov't loans.

Laslty, he is not taking credit for the bailout. The reason you said he was is because in your mind you have come to associate the bailout with saving the companies. For you to be in touch with reality, you must first abandon that dishonest notion. The "pre-bankruptcy bailout" which Romney rejected in November 2008, FAILED. Romney is taking credit for being the first one to propose using gov't supported bankruptcy restructuring, which is what Obama eventually used to save the companies (but not without stepping in to reward his special interest groups and corrupt the process for his benefit, politically).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 11:56:23 pm by Senator North Carolina Yankee »Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2012, 11:53:10 pm »
Ignore

Obama is really in a horrible position on this issue, but thanks to ignorance and the dishonest notion that Romney would have let the companies be liquidated (impossible if your read the 2008 article with any impartiality) to turn what is really his own disadvantage, into a disadvantage for Romney.

If Romney can establish that he too would have saved the companies, but without supporting a failed model and without engaging in crony capitalism, this may very well be what gives Romney Michigan, rather than what costs him it. The question is whether the dynamics of a campaing even allow for this, and also whether Romney and his campaign is competent enough to acheive it. The latter is more in doubt then the former.
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Beet
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15634


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2012, 11:57:03 pm »
Ignore

The pre-bankruptcy rescue was never going to be a permanent measure. The main issue was whether to rescue the companies, not whether to put them through restructuring. There was no one arguing at the time that the companies' existing business models were a success, so Romney was really just arguing against a phantom. Far from being the first person to state that the companies would need to change their leadership and reduce costs, he was merely stating the obvious at the time. The blowback he's getting from this article is deserves because, as I said, the article until the very end heavily implied a different position than Romney's actual position. We'll never know what Romney would have done, but the article suggests it would have been heavy on pandering.
Logged

Brian Schweitzer '16
Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 12:13:48 am »
Ignore

The pre-bankruptcy rescue was never going to be a permanent measure. The main issue was whether to rescue the companies, not whether to put them through restructuring. There was no one arguing at the time that the companies' existing business models were a success, so Romney was really just arguing against a phantom. Far from being the first person to state that the companies would need to change their leadership and reduce costs, he was merely stating the obvious at the time. The blowback he's getting from this article is deserves because, as I said, the article until the very end heavily implied a different position than Romney's actual position. We'll never know what Romney would have done, but the article suggests it would have been heavy on pandering.

No, but it was possibly a long term measure as many were afraid to even mention the "b-word" lest it look bad politically or rile the markets for a day (which it did later on when Obama put them into bankruptcy, but it is better to get the companies salvaged thne preserve a bleeding status quo to avoid a few bad days on Wall Street). Romney was the first mainstream politician (as second place finisher in the GOP primary) to call for such thing and call it for what it was.

Money to an insolvent company without a new business plan is indeed supporting a failed model with tax payer money. You also have to consider this is one month after the bank bailouts and handing money to a bunch of failed executives without conditions wasn't exactly a smart move economically or politically.

If he deserves blowback it is for a poor title choice, but he clearly wanted to get people to see it and he is not a good writer as he himself admits in his book. Only someone who didn't read the full article would come away thinking he implied something different then what he actually supported. And he makes clear, at the beginning, that his overarching goal is to save them from liquidation down the road.

Are you saying Obama didn't pander to certain groups of people when he actually enacted his plans? Atleast Romney's pandering had a measure of holding people accountable, whereas Obama's dealt with benefiting groups monetarily.
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27148
United States


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2012, 12:17:17 am »
Ignore

I will say it again, though. The credit is not being sought for it's own sake, it is being sought primarily as a method for combating the idea that he wanted them to be liquidated.
Logged

He's BACK!!! His Time Has Come Once Again! Now We're All Gonna Die! No One is Safe From His Wrath!



pbrower2a
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9332
United States


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2012, 06:51:36 am »
Ignore

I will say it again, though. The credit is not being sought for it's own sake, it is being sought primarily as a method for combating the idea that he wanted them to be liquidated.

He was willing to let them be liquidated as a message to those who have solid wages -- accept poverty and harsher conditions of employment on behalf of executives, financiers, tycoons, and big landowners who are the only people of significance in America. The GOP solution is economic, if not political fascism... government exists only to rescue elites, and such rescues invariably imply the marginalization of working people. It is a return of capitalism to the Marxist stereotype of early capitalism, an ugly but all-too-real caricature of the Gilded Age.   
Logged



Your political compass

Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49
AmericanNation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 945


Political Matrix
E: 4.90, S: 1.91

View Profile
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2012, 07:51:58 am »
Ignore

The pre-bankruptcy rescue was never going to be a permanent measure.
What? ? !!!
Then why did you waste all that money?
Why didn't you go to the process that would work, like Romney said to do?

Logged



EmersonAdams
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 51
United States


Political Matrix
E: -8.13, S: -4.52

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2012, 09:09:10 am »
Ignore

Romney is a joke. First Romney goes ahead and urges the world to "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt", and then he goes around and claims the laurels afterwords. He is a blatant flip-flopper, and if Romney had his way half of Michigan would be out of work. Michiganders will remember this come November, and how Romney wasn't man enough to admit his plan would have screwed over the Michigan.
Logged

"The lost causes are the only ones worth fighting for." -Jefferson Smith ("Mr.Smith goes to Washington")
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines