Dinner Doodle: The Separation of Church and School

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

this week's dinner doodle dives into the topic of comparing the voices of the world our kids are exposed to verses the word of God by talking about the differences between the message our kids hear at church and the one they hear at school.

It even disects the viewpoint of our political leaders.  So, print out several copies and pass them around the dinner table and enjoy a feast of the Word and whatever else you're eating.



here is a link to the printable PDF version:

http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1101781144813-269/DOODLE65Separation+of+Church+and+School.pdf

[afleitch]

Obviously a disgraceful message. I love how it asks children how they feel if their families ‘values’ are challenged; that’s what school is for; to challenge children. Any self respecting parent would welcome that, even if it conflicts with their own understanding of the world.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Obviously a disgraceful message. I love how it asks children how they feel if their families ‘values’ are challenged; that’s what school is for; to challenge children. Any self respecting parent would welcome that, even if it conflicts with their own understanding of the world.

so, it is ok for a school to ask other peoples' kids to question their family values, but it's "disgraceful" for a parent to ask their own kids to question the school's values?!

are you for real?

[they don't love you like i love you]

I actually agree with jmfcst here though I obviously disagree elwith his values

No kid of mine would ever be going to a Catholic or fundie school, even if money was no issue.

[afleitch]

Obviously a disgraceful message. I love how it asks children how they feel if their families ‘values’ are challenged; that’s what school is for; to challenge children. Any self respecting parent would welcome that, even if it conflicts with their own understanding of the world.

so, it is ok for a school to ask other peoples' kids to question their family values, but it's "disgraceful" for a parent to ask their own kids to question the school's values?!

are you for real?

You really need to learn that there are two types of discussion on this forum; what people say and what you think people say. Please do not argue with what is in your head, argue with what is on the screen.

It is very important to question the value system of any institution including schools. I just find it ironic the dinner doodle writer seems to think that what matters to most children is what matters to their fretful Christian parents; gays, prayer and Jesus riding a dinosaur rather than what is important to children; whether or not they are being bullied, whether or not they understand their work, exams and whether or not they need assistance. That's what should be being questioned in schools.

[John Dibble]

This week's dinner doodle is full of blatant lies that are standard to evangelical Christian propaganda. Let's analyze the Public School column, shall we?

1. Blatantly false. The subject of abortion isn't even broached in most public schools.

2. Blatantly false. At most schools are required to teach kids not to bully others for their sexual orientation. If anything most teacher tip-toe around the subject even in that case. Teaching it as God-designed is blatantly unconstitutional as well, as that goes into religion.

3. True in regards to science class, but this is because the Bible and God are not science and as such are not viable scientific alternatives to evolutionary theory. Religions are not allowed to be taught as fact in American public schools because of the constitutional separation of church and state. However, they can selectively be allowed in other contexts. For instance in my senior year of English my school's textbook included the King James version of the creation story and the fall in Genesis - the point was to look at it as a piece of literature. You can also have a comparative theology class where you compare major world religions that can involve reading religious texts.

4. False. The teaching of history in high school is certainly flawed, but only because it is dumbed down. The religious character of the founding fathers isn't really even touched in most schools, let alone misrepresented. The founding fathers weren't all a bunch of evangelical Christians anyways. Some where Christians of various stripes and some were deists, with Thomas Jefferson being the most prominent example of the latter. The Treaty of Tripoli should also shatter any notion that America was founded as a Christian nation anyways.

5. Blatantly false. Public schools cannot prohibit students to pray, with the exception of when a student is trying to lead a prayer as part of an official school event. Students can even make prayer gatherings outside of class time if they so choose, as they often did around the flag pole at my school. What is prohibited is the school endorsing and encouraging prayer.

[TJ in Oregon]

I'll admit I finished up with public school five years ago, but they never taught us acceptance or rejection of abortion or homosexuality, or the Bible, or any of the rest. These things were treated delicately and we made up our own minds. I didn't know the political or religious views of most of my teachers, nor should I have. Virtually all opinionated discussion of political-football topics was done by the students. That's how a public school should be run.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Obviously a disgraceful message. I love how it asks children how they feel if their families ‘values’ are challenged; that’s what school is for; to challenge children. Any self respecting parent would welcome that, even if it conflicts with their own understanding of the world.

so, it is ok for a school to ask other peoples' kids to question their family values, but it's "disgraceful" for a parent to ask their own kids to question the school's values?!

are you for real?

You really need to learn that there are two types of discussion on this forum; what people say and what you think people say. Please do not argue with what is in your head, argue with what is on the screen.

That’s exactly what you implied.  I simply took your same argument and applied it from the other side of the equation.  Don’t blame if the flipside exposed your argument (as if it even needed to be exposed, being so obviously flawed).

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It is very important to question the value system of any institution including schools. I just find it ironic the dinner doodle writer seems to think that what matters to most children is what matters to their fretful Christian parents; gays, prayer and Jesus riding a dinosaur rather than what is important to children; whether or not they are being bullied, whether or not they understand their work, exams and whether or not they need assistance. That's what should be being questioned in schools.

I have posted dinner doodles on bullying and these other topics…and doing well in school is a huge priority on our church and both my pastor’s kids are college grads and he sometimes worked 3 jobs to put them through school. 

For you to say those things (bullying and schoolwork) are only to be questioned really demonstrates your bias – you don’t want parents questioning the immorality taught in schools, to do so in your mind is misguided and disgraceful.   

[they don't love you like i love you]

Dibble's right as is TJ.

Though I've joked that my 10-year daughter would probably be trying to convert her many Muslim classmates to accept Christ (before watching gory R-rated movies after school of course. )

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

1. Blatantly false. The subject of abortion isn't even broached in most public schools.

how do you know this?  do you have children in school?

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2. Blatantly false. At most schools are required to teach kids not to bully others for their sexual orientation. If anything most teacher tip-toe around the subject even in that case. Teaching it as God-designed is blatantly unconstitutional as well, as that goes into religion.

how do you know this?  do you have children in school?

---

4. False. The teaching of history in high school is certainly flawed, but only because it is dumbed down. The religious character of the founding fathers isn't really even touched in most schools, let alone misrepresented.

how do you know this?  do you have children in school?

---

5. Blatantly false. Public schools cannot prohibit students to pray, with the exception of when a student is trying to lead a prayer as part of an official school event. Students can even make prayer gatherings outside of class time if they so choose, as they often did around the flag pole at my school. What is prohibited is the school endorsing and encouraging prayer.

that is exactly the point

[they don't love you like i love you]

Dibble went to a public school IIRC and things have not changed much since then.

jmfcst I heard this same crap when I was in a public high school and it was blatantly false then, with Dibble's post being right.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

1. Blatantly false. The subject of abortion isn't even broached in most public schools.

so, you're actually trying to tell me abortion is NOT even broached in sex ed class?

[they don't love you like i love you]

It wasn't in mine.

[John Dibble]

1. Blatantly false. The subject of abortion isn't even broached in most public schools.

how do you know this?  do you have children in school?

2. Blatantly false. At most schools are required to teach kids not to bully others for their sexual orientation. If anything most teacher tip-toe around the subject even in that case. Teaching it as God-designed is blatantly unconstitutional as well, as that goes into religion.

how do you know this?  do you have children in school?

4. False. The teaching of history in high school is certainly flawed, but only because it is dumbed down. The religious character of the founding fathers isn't really even touched in most schools, let alone misrepresented.

how do you know this?  do you have children in school?

I know these thing because I went to public school and I keep up with these issues.

What exactly is your evidence for the claims?

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that is exactly the point
[/quote]

No, the placemat says they "must not allow prayer" - that is a gross oversimplification and a child is likely to interpret it as the schools not allowing prayer at all.

1. Blatantly false. The subject of abortion isn't even broached in most public schools.

so, you're actually trying to tell me abortion is NOT even broached in sex ed class?

Not in most curricula I am aware of. Contraceptives such as condoms and the pill might be taught if it isn't an abstinence only curriculum, but given that abortion is a touchy subject most school boards and state governments prefer not to touch it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I know these thing because I went to public school and I keep up with these issues.

What exactly is your evidence for the claims?

so, did you keep up with the public school that facilitated an abortion for a 15 year old in WA?

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/88971742.html#Two

And you’re obviously not aware of what is going on statewide in MA in H597.

Just to name a few official instances, much less the instances where teachers take it upon themselves to attempt to discredit the bible.  Even in the public school my kids attend, it is fully of liberal teachers openly cussing and promoting immorality.

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No, the placemat says they "must not allow prayer" - that is a gross oversimplification and a child is likely to interpret it as the schools not allowing prayer at all.

Well, when the school doesn’t allow anyone to pray publically, the message the kid gets is that school is opposed to prayer in schools.  Kids correctly extrapolate.

---

Not in most curricula I am aware of

What curriculums are you aware of, exactly?

[afleitch]

Ironically, I went to a private religious school and all these topics were touched on. We had a Pro-Life Group and no opposing group was allowed; did it make everyone pro-life? No. I was pro-choice and talked about it publically and the split was probably 50/50 in opinion. No discussions of homosexuality, no literature allowed about it either. I was first out in my year, never had any problems and any church sanctioned messages about gays were openly challenged. Out of a graduating year of 80 students (and this is our reunion year) we have 10 openly LGBT.

So you can establish a 'jmfcst utopia' in schools; it doesn't translate to confirmity.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Dibble, you seem to be saying that "if it is not offically mandated, then it is not going on."

That's naive, for even in our local highschool, my daughter and her friends have constant stories that support the allegations of this doodle - teachers openly mocking the bible and pushing immorality to the kids.  In fact, the head coach of girls basketball team of Montgomery High School is a open lesbian and tells her girls inappropriate stories about her and her girlfriend, and textes inappropiate messages to the girls on the team. 

To claim that 1) Christian kids aren't inidated with constant messages from school staff that contradict biblical teaching, 2) there doesn't exist a movement to officallly condone homosexuality and abortion in schools...is really having your head buried in the sand.

And if you want to see what is coming to America every soon, just look at Europe, where teachers at a PRESCHOOL (that's right, PRE-SCHOOL) are being taught to refer to every kids as gender neutral.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/26/no-boys-and-girls-at-gender-neutral-preschool-in-sweden/

and please note that story comes from CNN, clearly not a source of "evangelical Christian propaganda"

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

surprised on one as made mention of this portion of the doodle:

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[John Dibble]

I know these thing because I went to public school and I keep up with these issues.

What exactly is your evidence for the claims?

so, did you keep up with the public school that facilitated an abortion for a 15 year old in WA?

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/88971742.html#Two

Congratulations on finding one anecdote that isn't even inside the sex ed classes you mentioned before, but rather in the school clinic. Clearly one anecdote means that the policy of all public schools is the same, which is why this video of a public school assembly where the speaker talks against homosexuality and abortion must also mean it's a universal policy. So clearly public schools are are a bunch of abortion giving gay lovers who also preach against abortion and

Do you actually have some laws or outright stated policies for a state curriculum that reflect these views in regards to abortion?

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http://www.malegislature.gov/Bills/187/House/H00597

Bill H.597
An Act to investigate the use of computed tomography (CT) scans in the Commonwealth.

Or are you talking about the what is "going on statewide" in the present year of 2007?

I went and found that bill, and I don't see exactly where the problem is. Could you point out explicitly which part of the bill offends your delicate sensibilities? Perhaps it's the part that lets parents opt their kids out of it?

http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/house/185/ht00/ht00597.htm

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The behavior of individual teachers is not a matter of policy and can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

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Well, when the school doesn’t allow anyone to pray publically, the message the kid gets is that school is opposed to prayer in schools.  Kids correctly extrapolate.[/quote]

You really should actually read my posts in full before responding to them. They are allowed to pray publicly. I gave a specific example where in the school I went to the students had regular prayer meetups quite publicly around the flag pole in front of the school.

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What curriculums are you aware of, exactly?[/quote]

I'm aware of the ones in Georgia that never mention abortion. I'm aware that many states have abstinence only sex ed. I'm aware that most curricula that teach contraception don't teach about abortion. (I'm not aware of a single one that does, in fact)

I could pose the same question to you - do you even know what the sex ed curriculum is at the school your kids go to?

[John Dibble]

Dibble, you seem to be saying that "if it is not offically mandated, then it is not going on."

No, I'm saying that the placemat grossly oversimplifies things and in some cases outright lies.

I'm damn well aware that teachers don't always adhere to policy. It goes both ways - 15 percent of biology teachers teach creationism even though it's well known to be unconstitutional to do so.

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And if you feel that any of this is in violation of some kind of policy or the Constitution, have you bothered to take yourself to the principal and voice your concerns? Or gone to the local school board meeting? Or talked to any lawyers if that failed so you can get the matter addressed by the courts to get the schools back into adhering with policy?

Or is your best effort giving your kids a dinner placemat?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Absolutely the worst Dinner Doodle you've presented here so far, j.  The blatant distortions of what happens in public schools given in the first column are  rather egregious.  What is sad is that engaging in such falsehoods is not necessary to make the point that the public schools do not have the same agenda as do private churches.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I'll have to catch up with this thread tomorrow.  I used all my daily quarters on the other thread.

[Redalgo]

For whatever it is worth, my experiences in public schools suggested a lingering religious influence over how sex ed was taught, subtle messages which had the effect of promoting theism over atheism and Protestantism over other monotheist religions, and while Judaism received favorable treatment one of my teachers who went on to get elected to the school board would only refer to Arabs and Muslims in his lectures as "Islamofascist bastards" until eventually given a light slap on his wrists by school administrators. The Pilgrims, "Christian" character of early state institutions, and manifest destiny were glorified in lessons whereas anti-atheist discrimination in the past century and the long campaign of cultural genocide waged against Native Americans within U.S. borders - largely in the name of Christ - was not even acknowledged prior to tertiary education.

Being atheist or even agnostic at those early ages was to bear a stigma - to be considered and at times even ostracized for being "un-American," in cahoots with Satan, and inevitably bound for Hell in the eyes of many peers. Now, if jmfcst wants to portray the public school system as a secular threat to family values then he can go right ahead and do that. But I figure it's still worth my time to note that in hindsight I feel every bit as opposed to the intolerant, authoritarian overreach of church-approved values into the minds of impressionable children in our public school system as he does to those being promoted by the state. Why is it so disagreeable that students be taught to treat each other fairly and with respect, develop and use their own analytical thinking skills, and go learn their religions' teachings during any of the many hours during which they are not at school?

While I think jmfcst made a few decent points, right now I'm very strongly agreeing with Dibble.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

the main problem with the school is many of the teachers are godless and do not represent the community at all, and many students, under attack from teachers, have to stand their ground on morals

notice I made this statement months before this dinner doodle was published...

I hardly doubt what is going on in our public school is an aberration...but I'm not going to waste time googling incidences in other parts of the country, for of all the examples that have happened just at our highschool, I don't think any ever made the news.  Most of the examples in our school happen in the classroom and are simply reported to parents like me by children like mine, and I assume that is the case in the vast majority of these instances throughout the country.

[John Dibble]

the main problem with the school is many of the teachers are godless and do not represent the community at all, and many students, under attack from teachers, have to stand their ground on morals

notice I made this statement months before this dinner doodle was published...

I hardly doubt what is going on in our public school is an aberration...but I'm not going to waste time googling incidences in other parts of the country, for of all the examples that have happened just at our highschool, I don't think any ever made the news.  Most of the examples in our school happen in the classroom and are simply reported to parents like me by children like mine, and I assume that is the case in the vast majority of these instances throughout the country.

Your particular school is not necessarily representative of every high school in the country. I swear you're being almost as bad as BRTD in using anecdotes to determine what the world is like. There are schools which go the opposite way - I recall a story about a public school where both the staff and the students were mostly quite religious and when one student came out as an atheist things got so bad for her that her parents had to withdraw her and start home schooling her. The vast majority of Americans are religious, and I don't know of any statistic indicating that high school teachers greatly deviate from the norm.

Again, if you feel that the teachers aren't adhering to professional standards are you actually doing something about it other than griping about it on the internet and giving your kids a placemat?