meanwhile in Pakistan

[dead0man]

They've jailed the doctor that helped us locate Osama, so we've cut $33mil in aid.  (I'd post links like normal, but I'm a little tired/ill....google is your friend)


I think it's time we cut ties with this sh**t hole.

[Torie]

...

I think it's time we cut ties with this sh**t hole.

Have you thought through the potential consequences of that, and the odds of this and that happening? I am not saying that you are wrong, but sometimes, one just has to suck it up, given the alternatives. Sometimes it just sucks.

[dead0man]

eff 'em...eff 'em right in their goat ass.  They might not be our worst "friend" (I think most people agree S.Arabia wins that contest), but they are sooo much more unpredictable than any of our other asshat friends.  At least you know what you're getting with S.Arabia and others on that peninsula, Pakistan is all wild card, all the time.  Of course I think we should cut ties the them (the asshats on the Arabian peninsula) as well, but that's for another thread.

[patrick1]

Dead0, I'm not a fan either but we also need to be able to continue to violate their airspace and drop bombs on their sovereign territory for what will probably be decades to come. The Pakistani government is not able to, cannot and will not stamp out the terrorist threats in the tribal areas so we have to do that whilst not causing a full scale blowout.

We should quietly make an asylum deal down the line for the doctor and his whole extended family.

[dead0man]

We can keep bombing them without being friends with them.  They'll bitch about it (like they do now), but they can't and won't do anything to stop it.  The thing we really need them as friends for is to keep supplying our troops in Afghanistan.  We're already working on ways around that since they are royally screwing us over on that right now.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Does dumbass McCain still consider Pakistan a great ally?

[True Federalist]

Actually this was quite predictable.  The Pakistani government is very weak and cannot appear to be taking orders from us.  Thankfully, the government arranged for the doctor to be brought up on those trumped up treason charges in a court that can't give the death penalty, assuming he can survive a couple years in a Pakistani prison until the situation calms down enough that the government can release hm.

That whole area would be easier to deal with if when the Raj was ended the subcontinent had been divided up more rather than into two religiously oriented superstates.

[shua]

Whatever the reason the Pakistanis sentenced him, this was a violation of medical ethics.  It's not clear exactly whether the vaccines were real but it looks like it was just the first round that was distributed, which doesn't do much good by itself. The CIA was really stupid here when you consider the wide view of its implications.  I'll say it was not worth catching Bin Laden if it required using a sham vaccination program that puts suspicion on every legitimate health organization trying to do work to save lives in countries that view the US government with suspicion.  But really, this doctor's scheme might not have been helpful to finding bin Laden in any case.

Here's a good blog on the issue: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/05/pakistan-polio-fake-cia/

[politicus]

We can keep bombing them without being friends with them.  They'll bitch about it (like they do now), but they can't and won't do anything to stop it.  The thing we really need them as friends for is to keep supplying our troops in Afghanistan.  We're already working on ways around that since they are royally screwing us over on that right now.

You are aware, that Pakistan is a nuclear power?

[dead0man]

We can keep bombing them without being friends with them.  They'll bitch about it (like they do now), but they can't and won't do anything to stop it.  The thing we really need them as friends for is to keep supplying our troops in Afghanistan.  We're already working on ways around that since they are royally screwing us over on that right now.

You are aware, that Pakistan is a nuclear power?

They don't nuke India over Kashmir, they're not going to nuke US troops in Afghanistan (because they don't posses missiles with range to reach the US) over some blown up terrorists in the bush.

[London Man]

They'll bitch about it (like they do now), but they can't and won't do anything to stop it. 

It's not hard to shoot down UAVs.

[dead0man]

Depends on how stealthy it is and/or the level of electronic countermeasures used during the raid.  Also, not hard to blow up the places shooting down UAVs.

[politicus]

The entire idea that the US can operate militarily on the territory of a great power like Pakistan without the explicit or tacit alliance with its government is ludicrous.

[dead0man]

Aren't we doing that now?

[Mr. Morden]

Aren't we doing that now?

Of course not:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/wikileaks-cable-pakistan-asked-fewer-drones/story?id=13647893#.T8FRPo4dkUU

Heck, according to the leaks to the media, the drones are all based in Pakistan itself.  They're pretty clearly cooperating on this.

[dead0man]

Since that article was published there has been some changes.  cite

Pakistan will shoot down any U.S. drone that intrudes its air space per new directives, a senior Pakistani official told NBC News on Saturday.

According to the new Pakistani defense policy, "Any object entering into our air space, including U.S. drones, will be treated as hostile and be shot down," a senior Pakistani military official told NBC News.

The policy change comes just weeks after a deadly NATO attack on Pakistani military checkpoints accidentally killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, prompting Pakistani officials to order all U.S. personnel out of a remote airfield in Pakistan.
Pakistan told the U.S. to vacate Shamsi Air Base by December 11.

A senior military official from Quetta, Pakistan, confirmed to NBC News on Saturday that the evacuation of the base, used for staging classified drone flights directed against militants, “will be completed tomorrow,” according to NBC’s Fakhar ur Rehman.
Pakistan's Frontier Corps security forces took control of the base Saturday evening after most U.S. military personnel left, Xinhua news agency reported. Civil aviation officials also moved in Saturday, Xinhua said.

Pakistani Military Chief Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kayani had issued multiple directives since the Nov. 26 NATO attack, which included orders to shoot down U.S. drones, senior military officials confirmed to NBC News on Saturday.

<snip>

So yes, last year they were based in Pakistan, but since Dec they've all come from Afghanistan (or otherwise outside of Pakistan).

[politicus]

Its important to distinguish between alliance and approval. Its clear that the US military has in a number of cases acted without approval from the Pakistani government.
But what dead0man said was that the US could operate on Pakistani territory without an alliance with Pakistan. That what I was commenting on. If the US was considered an enemy by the Pakistani government your military wouldn't be able to operate on their territory. (Which is of course the reason why the US government has no intention of breaking that alliance).

[dead0man]

Well it would certainly make things harder if they were going balls out trying to stop us operating in their territory, but they can't stop us anymore than Iraq could.  Last year the USAF paid more in salaries and allowances to their officers ($6.7B) (just officers, not enlisted...which is much larger) than Pakistan's entire military budget($6.4B).  If we want to blow up bad guys in Pakistan, we will ....whether they want us to or not.

[Torie]

Well it would certainly make things harder if they were going balls out trying to stop us operating in their territory, but they can't stop us anymore than Iraq could.  Last year the USAF paid more in salaries and allowances to their officers ($6.7B) (just officers, not enlisted...which is much larger) than Pakistan's entire military budget($6.4B).  If we want to blow up bad guys in Pakistan, we will ....whether they want us to or not.

But just why should we go there (more war, more monetary cost, more KIA's) over Pakistan going after one of our spies, execrable as that may be?  That is the question.

[patrick1]

Well it would certainly make things harder if they were going balls out trying to stop us operating in their territory, but they can't stop us anymore than Iraq could.  Last year the USAF paid more in salaries and allowances to their officers ($6.7B) (just officers, not enlisted...which is much larger) than Pakistan's entire military budget($6.4B).  If we want to blow up bad guys in Pakistan, we will ....whether they want us to or not.

But just why should we go there (more war, more monetary cost, more KIA's) over Pakistan going after one of our spies, execrable as that may be?  That is the question.

I think it is important that we send a message to people that cooperate with us that we will do our damnedest to protect them and their family.  This was the real tragedy of the wikileaks disclosures. After decades of duplicity, we really have to live by the no better friend motto.
This war against terrorism will go on for decades and HUMINT is and must be a cornerstone of our strategy.  Once this is out of the press for a while, we should really do a full court press and get this Dr. and his family out.

[dead0man]

Well it would certainly make things harder if they were going balls out trying to stop us operating in their territory, but they can't stop us anymore than Iraq could.  Last year the USAF paid more in salaries and allowances to their officers ($6.7B) (just officers, not enlisted...which is much larger) than Pakistan's entire military budget($6.4B).  If we want to blow up bad guys in Pakistan, we will ....whether they want us to or not.

But just why should we go there (more war, more monetary cost, more KIA's) over Pakistan going after one of our spies, execrable as that may be?  That is the question.

Knowingly housing Osama, charging us out the wazo to transport sh**t in Afghanistan, supporting terrorism inside of India, tipping terrorists off when we let them know we were coming for them, supporting the group that attacked our embassy in Kabul, allowing the PRC to investigate the stealth helicopter that crashed during the killing of Osama, general dickery.

[Progressive Realist]

It's not like the Pakistani government has much of a choice. Much of the population hates both the United States and the Pakistani government, and there's a huge homegrown terrorism problem in the country (not to mention, the Taliban's presence there). Though to be fair, the Pakistani government (especially the ISI) and the CIA and other intelligence agencies from other countries, all deserve their share of blame for nurturing and training the armies of mujahideen in the 80s, and then abandoning them when the Soviets were defeated.