Olmert: Jerusalem must be partitioned

[ag]

I always wonder, how much controversy even the most mundane statements of the obvious cause in that part of the world. Olmert, BTW, was the first right-wing Israeli mayor of Jerusalem - he knows what he is talking about. But, I guess, soon even a claim that 2x2 is equal to 4 is going to become controversial in that Holy Land.

[ag]

...I agree, but agreeing with the most incompetent PM in Israeli history makes me reconsider my position.  Surely if Ehud Olmert believes something you believe, it's time to reevaluate.

You forget, he had been a quite competent mayor of Jerusalem.

[ag]

Does anyone really think Palestine wants to be an independent state, and  become responsible for its actions?  Just asking. I haven't really seen much evidence of that myself.

I was expecting better from a lawyer. No abstract notion wants anything whatsoever - neither Palestine, nor Christendom, nor, for that matter, France.  In the case of actual states, when we say they "want" something,  we, usually, mean their governments. Palestine isn't a state, though. Do you mean Palestinian Authority, or the Fatah, or the de facto Hamas government of Gaza or whatever else of the 1000 different things you might possibly mean?

[ag]

What the Palestinians want - is another matter. Like any other people, it seems, they have a diversity of opinion. From what I know, for the moment, most, it would seem, would still prefer a separate state. Another option, of course, could be a single state - i.e., annexation of the territories into Israel, with the population acquiring Israeli citizenship. It is hard to say what the Palestinians would think of this, though, as this is simply not on offer: it is absolutely unacceptable to pretty much all Jewish Israelis to the right of the Communists (Hadash), including, it seems, most of Meretz - and pretty much everybody else.

In other words, the question is not what "Palestinians want" in the abstract, but what they want of the actual options that are remotely realistic. It would seem that almost nobody on the Palestinian side likes the occupation status quo; it is extremely unlikely that many would be happy about mass deportation or extermination. That leaves a Palestinian state - nothing else is, really, on the agenda.

[ag]

To sum up, the fundamental Israeli problem is not, really, that they (I mean most Jewish Israelis in their individual capacity) want to keep the land (that could be doable). Nor is it that they want to get rid of the Palestinians (the desire to be rid of each other is mutual). It is that they want both - and want it long after WWII.

[ag]

Well let's start with the West Bank and whatever government they elect.  Or if you want to add Gaza, fine. My little point lie elsewhere I think. You don't really need to define something to the last T when it is outside the range of your point in my experience.

Well, what do you think does the Palestinian administration in the West bank prefer? Status quo (which is not at all stable and is profoundly humiliating to all of them on the daily basis), deportation elsewhere (which is, probably, what most Jewish Israelis want) or an independent state. Not that there is anything else on offer. Is it that hard to figure out?

[ag]

... it is extremely unlikely that many would be happy about mass deportation or extermination.

I disagree, I think this is quite a popular opinion, and one that wouldn't simply go away even if they did get a state.

Have no doubt, it's popular in Israel. And, yes, I mean it

Now, to be clear, I got what you, actually, meant. And, of course, you also have a point. Except that  that, given the relative strength of the parties, it is not at all likely to go beyond sick fantasies.

[ag]

As I said, status quo I think may be the dirty little secret with respect to the West Bank side.

I am afraid, you are having it the other way around. The current Israeli government is all but open about being absolutely happy w/ the status quo - they see no point of any negotiations, because that would imply leaving something for the Palestinian state. So, naturally, they are not willing to propose anything that wouldn't be a strict deterioration for the Palestinians, as compared w/ the status quo - in every sense, including the humiliation. Palestinians, equally obviously, hate the status quo - but, obviously, prefer it to anything Israel is willing to pretend to propose. Given that Israel is in control on the ground - and, hence, in control of the agenda - no meaningful negotiations are happening.

Remember: the oficial Head of Israeli diplomacy lives on land that would be evacuated under pretty much any realistic two-state solution. That alone is telling enough.

[ag]

It's true that they can't actually carry this out in full but this is what suicide bombings are meant to do, and the more they are capable of doing this the more they will do this. Which is why I think negotiations, peace treaties and the concessions that come with them are counter-productive and just lead to more fighting.

They can't. But you can. And, unless you seriously engage in negotiations, peace treaties and the rest, you, eventually, will try.

[ag]

I don't think this is necessarily true, the status quo can continue longer than people think. But in any case, better us than them.

After a while, the demand for a Palestinian state will be gone - too unrealistic (it's becoming less realistic w/ every day). It will be replaced w/ a demand for equality. And that's a lot more dangerous for you. Because, unless you sastisfy that demand, that will mean not only the final and very drastic break w/ the (broad) West, but also decisive abandonment of the idea of the "Jewish democratic" state (not that you yourself will care at that point).  

At some point, a new Palestinian uprising will start - and you will find yourselves true pariahs in the world, Israeli state delegitimized. At that point, your logic: "better us, then them" will come into play - restraints of modernity, domestic and international respectability long since gone. In fact, you are a perfect exhibit, my best argument why this will indeed happen.

The problem will be: it won't be "us or them" - it will be "us and them".

[ag]

Just so my moral position is clear.

There are two currents in understanding Jewish history, based on two distinct interpretations of the sight of a uniformed policeman cutting the beard of a strangely dressed darkish guy with a funny accent. More specifically, the point of disagreement is, who is the Jew in that picture: the cutter, or the cuttee. For me, it is the latter - and that is at the root of my disagreement w/ modern Zionism. I don't really know what was happening where at the time of King David, but I do know the last 1000 years of the Jewish history too well. And, unlike the Zionists, I choose not to despise it.

The modern Western sensibility, at least one hopes, has incorporated this respect to the European Jewish sacrifice. Israeli mainstream, especially on the right, has betrayed it. Hence the archaic love of the uniformed guy w/ the big gun and the supreme cult of the God of War. And these people claim to be Jewish?

There is no such thing as a Jewish ispravnik - putting on that uniform is the true baptism, true betrayal.

[ag]

As I said, status quo I think may be the dirty little secret with respect to the West Bank side.

BTW, my dearest Torie, we lack a Palestinian here to enlighten us on dreams and sensibilities of that community. But we have an Israeli Jew, who has been kind enough to confirm my point. Notice, though we are on the opposite sides of the moral wall w/ danny, we agree on the descriptive substance: there is little in the status quo that offends at least this citizen of Israel, and there is no real desire to explore alternatives - nor any horror at the possibility of the "radical solution", as long as his side is doing the solving.

Now, I have no doubt that it wouldn't be hard to find similar points of view on the other side - though they are likely to lack in the English department. And that point of view, of course, would be equally horrifying from my standpoint. But is there really an asymmetry here between the sides, except in terms of the actual strength and formal educational attainment?

[ag]

The obvious observation, though, is, that the current leadership of the Palestinian authority is, broadly, in line w/ your vision - and the current government of Israel, supported by the likes of danny, is wholeheartedly opposed to it.

[ag]

A "people" is an abstraction, and abstractions don't act.