Olmert: Jerusalem must be partitioned

[Torie]

It is kind of tough to chat about policy in this part of the world, without Jew hater and such calumnies being thrown around isn't it?  And it does not take long to escalate to that point either does it?  And it tends to be a good reason why I tend to avoid threads on this topic. Thank you.

[Torie]

Does anyone really think Palestine wants to be an independent state, and  become responsible for its actions?  Just asking. I haven't really seen much evidence of that myself.

[Torie]

Does anyone really think Palestine wants to be an independent state, and  become responsible for its actions?  Just asking. I haven't really seen much evidence of that myself.

I was expecting better from a lawyer. No abstract notion wants anything whatsoever - neither Palestine, nor Christendom, nor, for that matter, France.  In the case of actual states, when we say they "want" something,  we, usually, mean their governments. Palestine isn't a state, though. Do you mean Palestinian Authority, or the Fatah, or the de facto Hamas government of Gaza or whatever else of the 1000 different things you might possibly mean?

Well let's start with the West Bank and whatever government they elect.  Or if you want to add Gaza, fine. My little point lie elsewhere I think. You don't really need to define something to the last T when it is outside the range of your point in my experience.

Under the status quo, whatever happens is not really anyone's responsibility on their side. If they had their own state, and allowed rockets to fire into Israel, or terrorists to hang out there, and hit Israel from time to time, then the sh*t would hit the fan in a way it does not now perhaps. States have certain responsibilities, and can be held more accountable.

I guess what I am saying, is that the ones running whatever show there is to run on the West Bank may be perfectly satisfied with it, absent getting something they will never get, like right of return, or borders that will not be given to them, etc. I would not be surprised if this doesn't drag on for another couple of decades.

[Torie]

As I said, status quo I think may be the dirty little secret with respect to the West Bank side.

Israel is too into making money these days I suspect to be in as hard a line mood as you suggest. I suspect they really want a deal, assuming some slight border changes in the narrow neck area in exchange for some of Israel proper farther south, and Israel can keep Jerusalem, with some special arrangement for the Arab zones, no right of return (except perhaps for a token one) and so forth. The Palestinian authorities seem to have no interest in such a deal, and I am speculating as to why (speculations not held solely by me by the way - I have read this line of thinking elsewhere).

[Torie]

Well Ag, my idea is some solution where the Jews can have some security in a state where they have a secure demographic majority, and the Palestinians get back most of what they lost in the 1967 war, with some structure for Jerusalem, and minor land swaps. I don't know where that fits in with either Danny's or your's sensibilities, but that is mine. And yes, Israel just annexing the West Bank or most of it, either means mass deportation, or the end of democracy in Israel, or the end of the Jewish state as a Jewish state, but one where Arabs are or soon will be the majority, and that given the history around there is well, just chilling. None of those options are acceptable, and all make my skin crawl.

I don't think the Palestinians accept my idea of a solution, in part for the reasons I outlined, while I suspect Israel would. So no deal, and while that might suit some Israelis, it does not suit me, while I suspect it suits the Palestinian Authority. If they can't get on the road to getting rid of the Jews, the second "best" thing is the status quo. That is why I think the status quo will be with us for a long time. Yes, it's sad.

So much hate, so little time.

[Torie]

The State of Israel: Lookin' for a handout.

Seriously, Israel is like that little kid who starts fights knowing his big brother will intervene to save his ass. One of these days Israel will reap what she has sown.

It's the US that likes to bring in allies to fight its wars for them, Israel fights its wars alone.

I tend to doubt that Israel would still exist, if the US did not exist, and in that last war, Israel was rather close to the edge, and the US gave rather massive assistance.  Israel worries and works US public opinion as one of its major priorities, and it should do so.

[Torie]

Methinks this thread would be better off dead.

Perhaps you can reanimate it with your opinion of the matter(s) at hand.