Olmert: Jerusalem must be partitioned

[danny]

A good thing he's a former PM.

[danny]

... it is extremely unlikely that many would be happy about mass deportation or extermination.

I disagree, I think this is quite a popular opinion, and one that wouldn't simply go away even if they did get a state.

[danny]

... it is extremely unlikely that many would be happy about mass deportation or extermination.

I disagree, I think this is quite a popular opinion, and one that wouldn't simply go away even if they did get a state.

Have no doubt, it's popular in Israel. And, yes, I mean it

Now, to be clear, I got what you, actually, meant. And, of course, you also have a point. Except that  that, given the relative strength of the parties, it is not at all likely to go beyond sick fantasies.

It's true that they can't actually carry this out in full but this is what suicide bombings are meant to do, and the more they are capable of doing this the more they will do this. Which is why I think negotiations, peace treaties and the concessions that come with them are counter-productive and just lead to more fighting.

[danny]

It's true that they can't actually carry this out in full but this is what suicide bombings are meant to do, and the more they are capable of doing this the more they will do this. Which is why I think negotiations, peace treaties and the concessions that come with them are counter-productive and just lead to more fighting.

They can't. But you can. And, unless you seriously engage in negotiations, peace treaties and the rest, you, eventually, will try.

I don't think this is necessarily true, the status quo can continue longer than people think. But in any case, better us than them.

[danny]

I don't think this is necessarily true, the status quo can continue longer than people think. But in any case, better us than them.

After a while, the demand for a Palestinian state will be gone - too unrealistic (it's becoming less realistic w/ every day). It will be replaced w/ a demand for equality. And that's a lot more dangerous for you. Because, unless you sastisfy that demand, that will mean not only the final and very drastic break w/ the (broad) West, but also decisive abandonment of the idea of the "Jewish democratic" state (not that you yourself will care at that point).  

At some point, a new Palestinian uprising will start - and you will find yourselves true pariahs in the world, Israeli state delegitimized. At that point, your logic: "better us, then them" will come into play - restraints of modernity, domestic and international respectability long since gone. In fact, you are a perfect exhibit, my best argument why this will indeed happen.

The problem will be: it won't be "us or them" - it will be "us and them".

Yes, the left in Israel is always predicting terrible things to happen if we don't quickly give up everything to the Palestinians, and they have been doing this for awhile. And yet, this doesn't seem to happen. They also say that great things will be if do make deals and leave land, and yet when we do this, violence ensues (Oslo accords,South Lebanon, Gaza disengagement).

I am more interested in reaching peace than peace deals. If the latter doesn't lead to the former, then they are making things worse rather than better.

[danny]

Just so my moral position is clear.

There are two currents in understanding Jewish history, based on two distinct interpretations of the sight of a uniformed policeman cutting the beard of a strangely dressed darkish guy with a funny accent. More specifically, the point of disagreement is, who is the Jew in that picture: the cutter, or the cuttee. For me, it is the latter - and that is at the root of my disagreement w/ modern Zionism. I don't really know what was happening where at the time of King David, but I do know the last 1000 years of the Jewish history too well. And, unlike the Zionists, I choose not to despise it.

The modern Western sensibility, at least one hopes, has incorporated this respect to the European Jewish sacrifice. Israeli mainstream, especially on the right, has betrayed it. Hence the archaic love of the uniformed guy w/ the big gun and the supreme cult of the God of War. And these people claim to be Jewish?

There is no such thing as a Jewish ispravnik - putting on that uniform is the true baptism, true betrayal.

I see no great morality in being beaten and killed. What I do believe in is "haba lehorgecha hashkem lehorgo"(if someone comes to kill you, go and kill him first).

Maybe you have some nostalgic ideas about how great it is to be beaten and killed, but I do not, and I don't think the Jews at the time were especially happy with their condition at the time.

[danny]

As I said, status quo I think may be the dirty little secret with respect to the West Bank side.

BTW, my dearest Torie, we lack a Palestinian here to enlighten us on dreams and sensibilities of that community. But we have an Israeli Jew, who has been kind enough to confirm my point. Notice, though we are on the opposite sides of the moral wall w/ danny, we agree on the descriptive substance: there is little in the status quo that offends at least this citizen of Israel, and there is no real desire to explore alternatives - nor any horror at the possibility of the "radical solution", as long as his side is doing the solving.

Now, I have no doubt that it wouldn't be hard to find similar points of view on the other side - though they are likely to lack in the English department. And that point of view, of course, would be equally horrifying from my standpoint. But is there really an asymmetry here between the sides, except in terms of the actual strength and formal educational attainment?

I represent my opinion, not that of the community. As the saying goes: "for every two Jews there are three opinions".

And it isn't that I think the status quo is a great solution, but it is the best we currently have. The perfect solution would involve neither side wanting to harm the other, and if that were the case than any deal would be fine, and both a two state and one state would work, but I see no way of reaching this.

[danny]

The State of Israel: Lookin' for a handout.

Seriously, Israel is like that little kid who starts fights knowing his big brother will intervene to save his ass. One of these days Israel will reap what she has sown.

It's the US that likes to bring in allies to fight its wars for them, Israel fights its wars alone.

[danny]

Fukk. I just wrote a giant post with my proposed Israel-Palestine boundary and a reply to some of the posters here, particularly Cory, who I think is being outright -- dare I say it? -- anti-Semitic, and Torie, who I usually agree with, who has some more reasonable concerns and with whom I also disagree.

I disagree with cory of course, but I don't see anything anti-Semitic about anything he wrote.