SENATE BILL: WHITE HOUSE BUDGET PROPOSAL (On the President's Desk)
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  SENATE BILL: WHITE HOUSE BUDGET PROPOSAL (On the President's Desk)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: WHITE HOUSE BUDGET PROPOSAL (On the President's Desk)  (Read 28292 times)
LastVoter
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« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2012, 08:02:11 PM »

Does anyone know what are we spending on the equivalent of Indian affairs?
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shua
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« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2012, 08:06:02 PM »

How high can taxes be raised on the wealthy before the law of diminishing returns kicks in?

Up to 100%, since Shua isn't factoring in Laffer Curve effects (which is silly, IMO).
I actually am a little with this, though I'm trying to err on the side of underestimating them. I'm estimating those corporate revenue increases at about 3/4 what would be expected with a straight 1:1 relationship. With those income tax changes it's very hard to guess, especially since it's a slight net tax decrease averaged across rates. Of course, corporate tax rates would influence income tax revenue and vice versa but I'm not going to try to deal with that as long as people as still debating rates for each. Also, this is revenue in the short term; whether tax revenues fall in the long term from a tax increase is not something I'm trying to estimate here.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2012, 08:24:00 PM »

Weird question- is there any way we could use this budget to merge departments of government and eliminate ones we don't need?  Obviously, the specifics would have to be worked out, but it would be great if we could use this opportunity to cut spending and bureaucracy at the same time.
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2012, 09:02:21 PM »

How high can taxes be raised on the wealthy before the law of diminishing returns kicks in?

Up to 100%, since Shua isn't factoring in Laffer Curve effects (which is silly, IMO).
I actually am a little with this, though I'm trying to err on the side of underestimating them. I'm estimating those corporate revenue increases at about 3/4 what would be expected with a straight 1:1 relationship. With those income tax changes it's very hard to guess, especially since it's a slight net tax decrease averaged across rates. Of course, corporate tax rates would influence income tax revenue and vice versa but I'm not going to try to deal with that as long as people as still debating rates for each. Also, this is revenue in the short term; whether tax revenues fall in the long term from a tax increase is not something I'm trying to estimate here.

Yeah, you're doing a sorta logarithmic thing I understand (and even that caused a spaz-out from somebody), but you'd still have revenues going up all the way to 100%, which is still silly.  You have to have an inflection point somewhere, even over a one-year timespan.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2012, 09:57:08 PM »

I object to Amendment 49:24:

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benconstine
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« Reply #105 on: June 03, 2012, 10:39:32 PM »

Not a fan of the higher rich tax rates, TJ? Wink
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #106 on: June 03, 2012, 10:42:17 PM »

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Status: A Vote is now open the above amendment, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #107 on: June 03, 2012, 10:42:33 PM »

Not a fan of the higher rich tax rates, TJ? Wink

No. I'm not going to support raising a rate already at 60%, or making the top corporate rate 44% (!). That's too much of other peoples' money right there.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #108 on: June 03, 2012, 10:44:34 PM »

Aye.
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Kaine for Senate '18
benconstine
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« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2012, 10:48:42 PM »

Aye on Seatown's gas Amendment.

No. I'm not going to support raising a rate already at 60%, or making the top corporate rate 44% (!). That's too much of other peoples' money right there.

Yes, but it's 44% on corporations making at least $15M, a significant amount.  Those who can pay more, should.  We're reducing rates on those who cannot afford to pay, while upping them on those who can.  That's simple fairness, and it makes economic sense, as we're making more now than we did under the original rates.
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TJ in Oregon
TJ in Cleve
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« Reply #110 on: June 03, 2012, 11:00:18 PM »

Aye on Seatown's gas Amendment.

No. I'm not going to support raising a rate already at 60%, or making the top corporate rate 44% (!). That's too much of other peoples' money right there.

Yes, but it's 44% on corporations making at least $15M, a significant amount.  Those who can pay more, should.  We're reducing rates on those who cannot afford to pay, while upping them on those who can.  That's simple fairness, and it makes economic sense, as we're making more now than we did under the original rates.

How are those companies supposed to grow, invest, add jobs to our economy, or heaven forbid, earn money for their shareholders if we're taking 44% of of their profits!? Large companies employ a lot of people and such a drastic increase in their taxes cannot be good for the economy.

I understand the larger companies and wealthier individuals can contribute more money to the government. I'm not advocating a flat tax. But this is too far.
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2012, 11:01:27 PM »

Nay
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LastVoter
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« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2012, 12:39:10 AM »

Aye
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Sbane
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« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2012, 12:59:57 AM »

Aye on the gasoline tax.

I will not be supporting the higher tax on corporations. Those taxes are passed on to the consumers or it leads to lower hiring. Income taxes are already high as well, so I don't see the need to raise rates there as well.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2012, 01:00:49 PM »

Yup Grin on the gas tax.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2012, 05:05:06 PM »

Vote on Amendment 49:22 by Seatown:

Aye (5): Ben, ILV, sbane, Scott and Seatown
Nay (1): Wormyguy
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (4): AndrewCT, Clarence, NC Yankee and TJ in Cleve

The amendment has passed. I will start the next one tomorrow.
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AndrewTX
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« Reply #116 on: June 10, 2012, 06:06:03 PM »

Sorry for being late, but Aye FTR. I was having a problem getting internet yesterday for some reason.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2012, 06:35:13 PM »

Except that it ended at 10 PM on Friday. Tongue
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shua
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« Reply #118 on: June 10, 2012, 10:24:46 PM »

I've been doing some research and working on improving my revenue models.
I'm thinking now those revenue figures I gave Ben should be considered optimistic Undecided
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2012, 11:37:01 AM »

Could he revise the amendment based on a more concrete analysis? How long would it take to get those numbers and revise the text?
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shua
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« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2012, 06:44:28 PM »
« Edited: June 12, 2012, 08:55:55 PM by shua, gm »

Could he revise the amendment based on a more concrete analysis? How long would it take to get those numbers and revise the text?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. If you'd like I can provide a revised estimate.
I'm estimating it now as being still revenue positive compared to the current structure, but more like $10 billion rather than $50 billion.

Also, we can reduce the healthcare expenditures down to about $950 billion now that the new bill is passed.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2012, 04:57:15 PM »

Okay Ben, it's your turn! Evil Bwahahaha!!! Evil Tongue
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Kaine for Senate '18
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« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2012, 09:06:35 PM »


Hmm?  If I can get numbers from Shua I can revise the Amendment, and I'm also looking into some spending cuts.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2012, 11:37:58 AM »
« Edited: June 14, 2012, 01:05:33 PM by Senator TJ »

The current income tax system is really unfair to the wealthy as the highest bracket is over half of their income and the second one is half, while many in this country pay absolutely nothing in income taxes. I would like to eliminate the 60% tax bracket without wrecking the almost-balanced nature of the budget. Here’s my attempt at an amendment:

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TJ in Oregon
TJ in Cleve
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« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2012, 11:38:26 AM »

Basically I:
-Changed the individual income tax rates to make the system fairer
-Added the proposed gas tax increase
-Cut the Corporate Clean Energy Credit by about half
-Readjusted the Science Funding to stress NSF and Energy rather than the space race
-Cut some of the Green Energy Fund
-Cut Funding to Education Research
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